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Senators: Neil and Fisher doubtful for Thursday

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dennycrane
jamvan
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rooneypoo
mattshock
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COLLAR UP
PTFlea
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504Heater wrote:The time is coming to start putting guys on the block and see if we can rebuild during the year, so that we might be able to sneak into the playoffs. I doubt it at this point, but there's still...64 games left or whatever it is.

Volchenkov? Vermette? Kelly? Foligno? I would love Fisher and Phillips, but the NMC gets in the way. We need to re-jig the entire D from bottom up, maybe with the exception of Kuba (unless he can bring back something useful).

Kuba will be gone at the deadline for picks, he wont be resigning next year. Too old to committ to when you want to start rebuilding. He will also comand 4 mil plus the way things are going, so that wont be happening.

The worst thing this team could do is sneek into the playoffs, any sense of false accomplishment on this team is not a good thing.

Foligno has had less than 82 games in the NHL and you want to trade him? There have been guys on the team who have been here for years and are basically career losers and have no sense of urgency or want to compete, and Foligno is the guy you want gone.... something is wrong there.

A Train is probably our best D man right now, is young, and brings something that no one else on this team brings.

Kelly and Vermette, well ya, but what are you going to get in return for them? Seriously...

You're looking at the wrong guys to trade aside from Vermette and Kelly.

jamvan


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504Heater wrote:The talent level up front should be okay (obviously there's an issue). But our D is woeful. Worst in the NHL, and if not the worst, very close.

If not for Auld, this team would be 2-16.
I don't think that's a fair comment. Our d is the worst in 1 area, getting the puck out of the zone. Defensively however, they are quite good. We haven't aloud many goals and Auld's GAA is quite pleasing. I think teh defence could use a jolt, which I hope Bell is, but the offence has no finish, that's the problem.

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jamvan wrote:
504Heater wrote:The talent level up front should be okay (obviously there's an issue). But our D is woeful. Worst in the NHL, and if not the worst, very close.

If not for Auld, this team would be 2-16.
I don't think that's a fair comment. Our d is the worst in 1 area, getting the puck out of the zone. Defensively however, they are quite good. We haven't aloud many goals and Auld's GAA is quite pleasing. I think teh defence could use a jolt, which I hope Bell is, but the offence has no finish, that's the problem.

The offense is defently a problem. Again, 20 million spent on 2 players and we have 5 goals in the last 5 games.... something is seriously wrong there.

dennycrane

dennycrane
Veteran
Veteran

Fisher 1.5 - 4.2
Vermette 1.0 - 2.6
Kelly 1.3 - 2.2
Heatley 4.5 - 7.5
Spezza 4.5 - 7.0

Last year's cap hit - This year's cap hit

These players, all receiving at least 50% raises, are in the first year of new contracts. If this were any other team, we would all be saying that these players got big raises and have lost their edge because of it. Based on production, these players are still too comfortable.

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dennycrane wrote:Fisher 1.5 - 4.2
Vermette 1.0 - 2.6
Kelly 1.3 - 2.2
Heatley 4.5 - 7.5
Spezza 4.5 - 7.0

Last year's cap hit - This year's cap hit

These players, all receiving at least 50% raises, are in the first year of new contracts. If this were any other team, we would all be saying that these players got big raises and have lost their edge because of it. Based on production, these players are still too comfortable.

Based on production, Heatley is fine.... still has to do a lot more though.

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I had a seemingly brilliant idea and I want to get your (sites members) take on it:
Trade for Bouw at some point this season; then to clear up cap issues, trade Spezza (and w/e it takes) at the draft for the 1st overall; then get ready for next season with a defense that looked like this:

Bouw-Phillips (or Volchenkov...w/e)
Volchenkov-Picard/Lee (whichever one wasn't used in Bouw trade)
Hedman-E.Karlsson

cheers

It leaves us with Fisher, Winchester, Kelly, and Bass down the middle, but so the Diddle what!
Forward lines of:
Heatley-Fisher-Alfredsson
Zubov-Winchester-Smith
Ruutu-Kelly-Foligno
whoever-Bass-Donovan
...look pretty decent to me.

rooneypoo

rooneypoo
All-Star
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Neely4Life wrote:

Kuba will be gone at the deadline for picks, he wont be resigning next year. Too old to committ to when you want to start rebuilding. He will also comand 4 mil plus the way things are going, so that wont be happening.

The worst thing this team could do is sneek into the playoffs, any sense of false accomplishment on this team is not a good thing.

Foligno has had less than 82 games in the NHL and you want to trade him? There have been guys on the team who have been here for years and are basically career losers and have no sense of urgency or want to compete, and Foligno is the guy you want gone.... something is wrong there.

A Train is probably our best D man right now, is young, and brings something that no one else on this team brings.

Kelly and Vermette, well ya, but what are you going to get in return for them? Seriously...

You're looking at the wrong guys to trade aside from Vermette and Kelly.

Hmmm. I think I know where this is going, again. To quote Tolkien: I know what you would say, and it would seem like wisdom at the time, but for the warning in my heart.

Trading franchise players is not the answer -- and, yes, Spezza IS a franchise player. Next suggestion, please.

Guest


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cash wrote:I had a seemingly brilliant idea and I want to get your (sites members) take on it:
Trade for Bouw at some point this season; then to clear up cap issues, trade Spezza (and w/e it takes) at the draft for the 1st overall; then get ready for next season with a defense that looked like this:

Bouw-Phillips (or Volchenkov...w/e)
Volchenkov-Picard/Lee (whichever one wasn't used in Bouw trade)
Hedman-E.Karlsson

cheers

It leaves us with Fisher, Winchester, Kelly, and Bass down the middle, but so the Diddle what!
Forward lines of:
Heatley-Fisher-Alfredsson
Zubov-Winchester-Smith
Ruutu-Kelly-Foligno
whoever-Bass-Donovan
...look pretty decent to me.

If Bell plays well here for the next month or so it is very likely he may have found a full time job in Ottawa. He is head and shoulders above Lee at this point.

Karlsson wont be ready and if we draft Hedman, he will be here. If Spezza is traded you can bet there will be a free agent coming in next year to fill that 1st line center position, my money would be on Andy McDonald with his history with Murray and St Louis being so young.

The D next year, with more luck/or bad luck (depends how you look at it will be)

Bouwmeester/A train
Phillips/Hedman
Bell/Smith
Picard

If we do draft Hedman, you be everything you have that Lee wont be here much longer than another year.

Guest


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rooneypoo wrote:
Neely4Life wrote:

Kuba will be gone at the deadline for picks, he wont be resigning next year. Too old to committ to when you want to start rebuilding. He will also comand 4 mil plus the way things are going, so that wont be happening.

The worst thing this team could do is sneek into the playoffs, any sense of false accomplishment on this team is not a good thing.

Foligno has had less than 82 games in the NHL and you want to trade him? There have been guys on the team who have been here for years and are basically career losers and have no sense of urgency or want to compete, and Foligno is the guy you want gone.... something is wrong there.

A Train is probably our best D man right now, is young, and brings something that no one else on this team brings.

Kelly and Vermette, well ya, but what are you going to get in return for them? Seriously...

You're looking at the wrong guys to trade aside from Vermette and Kelly.

Hmmm. I think I know where this is going, again. To quote Tolkien: I know what you would say, and it would seem like wisdom at the time, but for the warning in my heart.

Trading franchise players is not the answer -- and, yes, Spezza IS a franchise player. Next suggestion, please.

Franchise players always the 3rd best player on a team? If we get J Bo, that would be 4th. Its a question.

rooneypoo

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Neely4Life wrote:
The offense is defently a problem. Again, 20 million spent on 2 players and we have 5 goals in the last 5 games.... something is seriously wrong there.

You mean, on 3 players. And technically, their combined cap hit this year is just under $20 mil, if we want to get technical about it.

PTFlea

PTFlea
Co-Founder
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It's happening right before our eyes. You want to trade Spezza? Really?

Look at the Sharks. It took them a couple of years to figure things out, but without Thornton there's no way they'd be co-favourites to come out of the tough West.

Trade Spezza at great peril.

rooneypoo

rooneypoo
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504Heater wrote:It's happening right before our eyes. You want to trade Spezza? Really?

Look at the Sharks. It took them a couple of years to figure things out, but without Thornton there's no way they'd be co-favourites to come out of the tough West.

Trade Spezza at great peril.

Here's the better solution: don't trade him at all.

Re-building teams trade older guys on the ends of the contracts, no young guys just coming into their own, and just signed long term.

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Guest

504Heater wrote:It's happening right before our eyes. You want to trade Spezza? Really?

Look at the Sharks. It took them a couple of years to figure things out, but without Thornton there's no way they'd be co-favourites to come out of the tough West.

Trade Spezza at great peril.

Look at Boston. Not to mention they have Rask coming up and he isnt even part of that team yet. The trade its self was piss poor, but Boston is a better team now then they would be with Thornton. In San Jose it also took getting rid of their top scorer in Nolan to get things turned around. Boston wanted him out of there and it turned their franchise around. They havnt been this competitive since the days of Neely and Bourque.

Thornton also plays a physical game and has intangibles that Spezza never will.

PTFlea

PTFlea
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They're exactly the same player Neely. The difference is Thornton has 6 years on Spezza and is finally starting to 'get it'. I doubt it takes Spezza that long.

The reason Boston's so competitive is savvy moves. They signed Savard, Chara, drafted Bergeron, fleeced Atlanta in a trade for Coburn, got fleeced by the Blues, but luckily for them it's working.

Then they drafted Kreji (sp), Lucic and managed to hang onto Sturm.

Not to mention that Thomas is playing out of his element to a degree.

All well thought out, savvy moves - none the which had anything to do with Thornton being traded.

Now Murray etc. Those old hands were done. Thornton...well, let's just say the East thanks the Bruins for getting rid of him.

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504Heater wrote:They're exactly the same player Neely. The difference is Thornton has 6 years on Spezza and is finally starting to 'get it'. I doubt it takes Spezza that long.

The reason Boston's so competitive is savvy moves. They signed Savard, Chara, drafted Bergeron, fleeced Atlanta in a trade for Coburn, got fleeced by the Blues, but luckily for them it's working.

Then they drafted Kreji (sp), Lucic and managed to hang onto Sturm.

Not to mention that Thomas is playing out of his element to a degree.

All well thought out, savvy moves - none the which had anything to do with Thornton being traded.

Now Murray etc. Those old hands were done. Thornton...well, let's just say the East thanks the Bruins for getting rid of him.

The fact you think Thornton and Spezza are the same player is laughable.

The only reason Boston could make those moves is because Thornton was gone. If you think BOyes is all that great, he isnt, McDonald was the guy that turned him into the 40 goal guy, nothing else. Boyes wouldnt come close to doing that alone.

Boston built their team from the blueline out, the way it should be done and they way teams win. You basically said because they did the smart thing for their organization and made good choices, they were lucky... If only you guys knew what kind of person and team mate Spezza really was, and what the opinons of the players in the NHL were about him. Ive told ya, but you guys wouldnt believe me, just like I said a lot of things last year that actually happend.... Ive proved I know what Im talkng about and people I talk to. Say what you want, you can think Spezza is the greatest player in the world, the Sens will NEVER win with him here.

rooneypoo

rooneypoo
All-Star
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Neely4Life wrote:
The fact you think Thornton and Spezza are the same player is laughable.

The only reason Boston could make those moves is because Thornton was gone. If you think BOyes is all that great, he isnt, McDonald was the guy that turned him into the 40 goal guy, nothing else. Boyes wouldnt come close to doing that alone.

Boston built their team from the blueline out, the way it should be done and they way teams win. You basically said because they did the smart thing for their organization and made good choices, they were lucky... If only you guys knew what kind of person and team mate Spezza really was, and what the opinons of the players in the NHL were about him. Ive told ya, but you guys wouldnt believe me, just like I said a lot of things last year that actually happend.... Ive proved I know what Im talkng about and people I talk to. Say what you want, you can think Spezza is the greatest player in the world, the Sens will NEVER win with him here.

This is totally re-visionist history.

Boston got the room to sign Savard (in 2006) and Chara (also in July 2006) because the cap ballooned that year from $39 mil to about $45 mil. Thornton was only making $6.5 mil at the time, and only had a 1 1/2 left on his deal. The Savard signing was to replace Thornton. The Chara signing was done with the money opened up by the increase in the cap, not the money Thornton's leaving freed up -- especially when you consider that the Bruins took back something like $5 mil in salary (Sturm = $2 mil, Stuart = $2 mil, and Primeau = $1) in that deal, which means they really only freed up about $1.5 mil in cap space, and had to turn around and sign Savard to replace him.

In short, Boston didn't need to dump Thornton to make room for Chara. Plain and simple. The math doesn't lie.

In any event, history shows us that a) Thornton always was and is a great player, and any team with him on it is a better team for it, b) the only way to replace that kind of talent (as with the Savard signing) is to spend big on July 1, and c) that the Sens have never, ever spent big on July 1, so the scenario doesn't really apply to us.

People said, btw, the same stuff about Yzerman when he was young -- that he lacked heart, that he'd never win, etc., etc. The point is NOT that Spezza is just like Yzerman was AT HIS PRIME, but rather that there are startling similarities between the situations of Spezza NOW and young Yzerman THEN. Don't try and twist that into a "Spezza's not Yzerman" argument, because that's not what I'm saying.

Finally, I simply can't take at face value your comment that "if only us guys knew what Spezza is really like...," because that statement suggests that YOU do while the rest of us don't. Sorry, but I trust his coach's and his GM's and his teamates' opinion on him over that of any fan claiming to have insider knowledge. You're not talking to Spezza on a daily basis or subjecting him to monthly psychological reviews or sitting on the bench with him game in and game out, so don't pretend that you about these things any better than the rest of us do.

shabbs

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I'm having HBuzz flashbacks...

smash88

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shabbs wrote:I'm having HBuzz flashbacks...

LOL... Smile

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