NHL CBA Talk

sandysensfan wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

sandysensfan wrote:Both sides had to ''travel'' to the meeting..

The WC won't be back this season. I think Detroit & Toronto would need more time to advertise the heck out of this.

I refuse to get optimistic.... hurts too much when the NHLPA shoots it down.

I will be optimistic when they sign on the dotted line.

The NHL is in constant contact with it's teams to get fan reactions. I'm sure they are aware how pissed off the fans are.. and the potential for a lot of them not returning.

The NHL is pushing this forward... the NHLPA is dragging it's heals.

I have tried to say nothing at all about this stupid lockout but... that's the most ridiculous thing I've read in a while. There's no basis for it, none. Both parties have their heads up their asses, and they each share the blame here. Dressing up Gary Bettman in hero's tights & a cape is hyperbolic, hilarious, & borderline insane.

Bettman is not a hero. I hate the little SOB. But through most of this it has been the Owners pushing this. They wanted to start talks in January but the NHLPA waited until the end of June. Then delayed further into August to respond to the NHL's first offer. It appears to be that the NHLPA has been delaying this process. Don't get me wrong.. I don't support the Owners either.

But the only way this gets done if in the meetings Bettman & Donald Fehr are absent. The players don't like or respect Bettman -- the Owners don't like Donald Fehr. Best for both sides that they are not in the discussions.

Bettman and Fehr have to be involved. Who's going to scurry out to blow smoke up the asses of the greatest fans in the world otherwise?

sandysensfan wrote:

shabbs wrote:13 players are in attendance today including Crosby.

Sounds like there will be a couple of groups...

The Fehrs, Bettman and Daly in the main group and a side group for consultaiton. Players won't be in the main meeting.

John Shannon: "This is the most cautious I have ever seen Don Fehr. No rhetoric,no malice,no history lesson. Just sayin'. #tickticktick"

https://twitter.com/JSportsnet/status/265889540093390848

I don't trust Donald Fehr.. and I don't trust Gary Bettman...

We know.

Flo The Action wrote:so the meeting lasted 7 hours and there's another planned for tomorrow? seems like they're ironing things out. usually they last under an hour to see these guys can't see eye to eye.

could there be a season starting soon? It sure smells like it.

From what I heard this morning on the Fan 590, they did not even discuss the "make whole" issue yesterday. The impression is that it will be the topic for discussion today.

Hopefully some good traction is going on.

sandysensfan wrote:

shabbs wrote:NHLPA to have a media availability session BEFORE the negotiations... that's odd...

Maybe they just won't go to the sessions because Bettman is there.

But even though I don't support either side in this stupid, greedy lockout.. I do agree that the players should get their full pay. The owners should be responsible for that.

Considering in the next 2 seasons about 500 or so contracts on the books will expire.

But the ones left are the biggies. Each team should pay their own 'make-whole'. So the teams that signed those stupid long term ridiculous contracts should be responsible for every cent.

The only big long-term contracts the Sens will have at this point is Spezza & Karlsson. So it wouldn't hurt them too much...

Sandy, the old contracts only make sense in the framework of the old CBA. They were never "guaranteed". The cap can be a hard cap or it can be one based on a share of revenues. It cannot be both, which is what the players appear to want. No onecomplains then they are riding the gravy train with 300% or more raises (what we would consider a mediocre player in years gone by, because of the dilution of the talent, can now be going from under $1M to $3.5M in the time it takes to write his name on a new contract. Players who cannot make the top six in a 30-team league would have a tough time breaking into the league only a short time ago when we had 24 teams. And those players are making $3M+ in a lot of cases.

If the players want to keep a bit more of their money, they should get together and form a company to represent all the members. Why on earth are agents making 15% of the players' salary is beyond me (and, yes, that is the figure I'd read somewhere). Brodeur takes care of his own contracts and he's doing alright. What a tough negotiating agent will get you, more often than not, is a reputation and a new address. Sure, he'll get you more money, but then he'll take 15% of it. Maybe Brodeur could have made more money with an agent, even after paying him 15%, but he would never have stayed in the same city for his whole career. The cost of uprooting your family every few years cannot be underestimated. Once your basic necessities of life are covered, ad you are never worrying about things like the costs of family vacations, your children's education, then that extra million is not worth the tears on your kids' faces as they have to say good bye to all their friends yet again.

Anyhow, sorry for going off on a tangent. Back to the previous point -- the contracts they signed were never guaranteed and the players knew it, or should have known it. If the owners are saying we'll cover your contract up but not exceeding S * (HRR * .57)/$1.881B (where S = player's salary in the contract) then that's perfect.

Let's say a player's salary this year is $6.5M. This was based on the players getting $1.881B (their 57% share of the $3.3B revenues). So if the revenues drop to $3B post-lockout, then the player would get $6.5M * (3 * .57)/1.881, or approximately $5.91M. That is what he would have received under the old CBA, so how could he expect to get more?

Now, if revenues drop even further, let's say $2.5B (no WC, no ASG, ticket revenues missing from ~20 games), then that player is only getting $4.924M. Of course that wold be the total including the "make whole" payments, which would be doles out over the length of the contract. His actual salary would be $4.32M, which is based on a 50/50 split. Then the "make whole" would bump it up another $600K.

The above all makes perfect sense to me. This is what happens when there is a lockout and there is no HRR. And if they sit out any longer, then it will only get worse as more games are canceled. If a whole season is lost, don't cout on having a "make whole" provision in the next offer. Since all the contracts were signed *inside* the old CBA, and that CBA is gone, you could argue that every contract has to now be renegotiated, or everyone becomes a free agent. That would be complete chaos and no one wants it.

I hope today is the day they give everyone an answer one way or another. Don't care what the answer is.

wprager wrote:



If the players want to keep a bit more of their money, they should get together and form a company to represent all the members. Why on earth are agents making 15% of the players' salary is beyond me (and, yes, that is the figure I'd read somewhere). Brodeur takes care of his own contracts and he's doing alright. What a tough negotiating agent will get you, more often than not, is a reputation and a new address. Sure, he'll get you more money, but then he'll take 15% of it. Maybe Brodeur could have made more money with an agent, even after paying him 15%, but he would never have stayed in the same city for his whole career. The cost of uprooting your family every few years cannot be underestimated. Once your basic necessities of life are covered, ad you are never worrying about things like the costs of family vacations, your children's education, then that extra million is not worth the tears on your kids' faces as they have to say good bye to all their friends yet again.

Brodeur hired Pat Brisson before re-signing in Jersey this past year. You could still be right that if he'd had an agent throughout his career, he wouldn't have stayed in Jersey, but who knows?

spader wrote:

wprager wrote:



If the players want to keep a bit more of their money, they should get together and form a company to represent all the members. Why on earth are agents making 15% of the players' salary is beyond me (and, yes, that is the figure I'd read somewhere). Brodeur takes care of his own contracts and he's doing alright. What a tough negotiating agent will get you, more often than not, is a reputation and a new address. Sure, he'll get you more money, but then he'll take 15% of it. Maybe Brodeur could have made more money with an agent, even after paying him 15%, but he would never have stayed in the same city for his whole career. The cost of uprooting your family every few years cannot be underestimated. Once your basic necessities of life are covered, ad you are never worrying about things like the costs of family vacations, your children's education, then that extra million is not worth the tears on your kids' faces as they have to say good bye to all their friends yet again.

Brodeur hired Pat Brisson before re-signing in Jersey this past year. You could still be right that if he'd had an agent throughout his career, he wouldn't have stayed in Jersey, but who knows?

Fraudeur ran that team and it was built to make him look better than he ever actually was. That turkey knows where his bread his buttered.

hemlock wrote:

sandysensfan wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

sandysensfan wrote:Both sides had to ''travel'' to the meeting..

The WC won't be back this season. I think Detroit & Toronto would need more time to advertise the heck out of this.

I refuse to get optimistic.... hurts too much when the NHLPA shoots it down.

I will be optimistic when they sign on the dotted line.

The NHL is in constant contact with it's teams to get fan reactions. I'm sure they are aware how pissed off the fans are.. and the potential for a lot of them not returning.

The NHL is pushing this forward... the NHLPA is dragging it's heals.

I have tried to say nothing at all about this stupid lockout but... that's the most ridiculous thing I've read in a while. There's no basis for it, none. Both parties have their heads up their asses, and they each share the blame here. Dressing up Gary Bettman in hero's tights & a cape is hyperbolic, hilarious, & borderline insane.

Bettman is not a hero. I hate the little SOB. But through most of this it has been the Owners pushing this. They wanted to start talks in January but the NHLPA waited until the end of June. Then delayed further into August to respond to the NHL's first offer. It appears to be that the NHLPA has been delaying this process. Don't get me wrong.. I don't support the Owners either.

But the only way this gets done if in the meetings Bettman & Donald Fehr are absent. The players don't like or respect Bettman -- the Owners don't like Donald Fehr. Best for both sides that they are not in the discussions.

Bettman and Fehr have to be involved. Who's going to scurry out to blow smoke up the asses of the greatest fans in the world otherwise?

The Gene is good at that.

Things are looking slightly more positive for the first time in forever. Fingers crossed.

Via Aaron Portzline:

"All signs suggest the 2013 NHL All-Star Game -- to be hosted in Nationwide Arena by #CBJ -- is still a go if a new CBA is reached quickly. "

https://twitter.com/Aportzline/status/266202596837048320

tim1_2 wrote:Things are looking slightly more positive for the first time in forever. Fingers crossed.

Wait for it... wait for it....

ALL HOPES AND DREAMS WILL BE CRUSHED SOON ENOUGH!!!!!!

shabbs wrote:Via Aaron Portzline:

"All signs suggest the 2013 NHL All-Star Game -- to be hosted in Nationwide Arena by #CBJ -- is still a go if a new CBA is reached quickly. "

https://twitter.com/Aportzline/status/266202596837048320

Why on earth would they do that? The season is going to be compressed enough as is.

wprager wrote:Sandy, the old contracts only make sense in the framework of the old CBA. They were never "guaranteed". The cap can be a hard cap or it can be one based on a share of revenues. It cannot be both, which is what the players appear to want.

I think they just want the old contracts grandfathered in under the old CBA, subject to the old escrow rules and not subject to any rollback/cuts.

Which is reasonable.

shabbs wrote:

wprager wrote:Sandy, the old contracts only make sense in the framework of the old CBA. They were never "guaranteed". The cap can be a hard cap or it can be one based on a share of revenues. It cannot be both, which is what the players appear to want.

I think they just want the old contracts grandfathered in under the old CBA, subject to the old escrow rules and not subject to any rollback/cuts.

Which is reasonable.

I think just about everyone understands that contracts were never guaranteed. I think this is the PAs way of making a gradual transition to 50/50 rather than an immediate drop in revenue share across the board.

wprager wrote:

sandysensfan wrote:

shabbs wrote:NHLPA to have a media availability session BEFORE the negotiations... that's odd...

Maybe they just won't go to the sessions because Bettman is there.

But even though I don't support either side in this stupid, greedy lockout.. I do agree that the players should get their full pay. The owners should be responsible for that.

Considering in the next 2 seasons about 500 or so contracts on the books will expire.

But the ones left are the biggies. Each team should pay their own 'make-whole'. So the teams that signed those stupid long term ridiculous contracts should be responsible for every cent.

The only big long-term contracts the Sens will have at this point is Spezza & Karlsson. So it wouldn't hurt them too much...

Sandy, the old contracts only make sense in the framework of the old CBA. They were never "guaranteed". The cap can be a hard cap or it can be one based on a share of revenues. It cannot be both, which is what the players appear to want. No onecomplains then they are riding the gravy train with 300% or more raises (what we would consider a mediocre player in years gone by, because of the dilution of the talent, can now be going from under $1M to $3.5M in the time it takes to write his name on a new contract. Players who cannot make the top six in a 30-team league would have a tough time breaking into the league only a short time ago when we had 24 teams. And those players are making $3M+ in a lot of cases.

If the players want to keep a bit more of their money, they should get together and form a company to represent all the members. Why on earth are agents making 15% of the players' salary is beyond me (and, yes, that is the figure I'd read somewhere). Brodeur takes care of his own contracts and he's doing alright. What a tough negotiating agent will get you, more often than not, is a reputation and a new address. Sure, he'll get you more money, but then he'll take 15% of it. Maybe Brodeur could have made more money with an agent, even after paying him 15%, but he would never have stayed in the same city for his whole career. The cost of uprooting your family every few years cannot be underestimated. Once your basic necessities of life are covered, ad you are never worrying about things like the costs of family vacations, your children's education, then that extra million is not worth the tears on your kids' faces as they have to say good bye to all their friends yet again.

Anyhow, sorry for going off on a tangent. Back to the previous point -- the contracts they signed were never guaranteed and the players knew it, or should have known it. If the owners are saying we'll cover your contract up but not exceeding S * (HRR * .57)/$1.881B (where S = player's salary in the contract) then that's perfect.

Let's say a player's salary this year is $6.5M. This was based on the players getting $1.881B (their 57% share of the $3.3B revenues). So if the revenues drop to $3B post-lockout, then the player would get $6.5M * (3 * .57)/1.881, or approximately $5.91M. That is what he would have received under the old CBA, so how could he expect to get more?

Now, if revenues drop even further, let's say $2.5B (no WC, no ASG, ticket revenues missing from ~20 games), then that player is only getting $4.924M. Of course that wold be the total including the "make whole" payments, which would be doles out over the length of the contract. His actual salary would be $4.32M, which is based on a 50/50 split. Then the "make whole" would bump it up another $600K.

The above all makes perfect sense to me. This is what happens when there is a lockout and there is no HRR. And if they sit out any longer, then it will only get worse as more games are canceled. If a whole season is lost, don't cout on having a "make whole" provision in the next offer. Since all the contracts were signed *inside* the old CBA, and that CBA is gone, you could argue that every contract has to now be renegotiated, or everyone becomes a free agent. That would be complete chaos and no one wants it.

I think what got the players and Fehr and probably Bettman irritated.. is that quite a few Owners/GMs signed a lot of players for a lot of money just before the Sept 15th lockout was announced.

Now how does that look going into negotiations when contracts such as some of these are done. How can the Owners look across the table and demand some of the money back on contracts they signed less about a month earlier. The players signed them in good faith and feel they should be honoured. I can see when they get upset in that case...

I get their point... BUT there is also a clause in those contracts that references the CBA.

I think some of the players are just kicking themselves they weren't represented by the same agent who drafted the Suter/Parise contracts. Those guys knew rollbacks were coming so they included ridiculous up-front bonuses. I don't think anyone will be able to convince me that those guys knew those contracts were drafted/signed with the full expectations of a significant rollback. Those are rollback- and lockout-proof contracts.

wprager wrote:I think some of the players are just kicking themselves they weren't represented by the same agent who drafted the Suter/Parise contracts. Those guys knew rollbacks were coming so they included ridiculous up-front bonuses. I don't think anyone will be able to convince me that those guys knew those contracts were drafted/signed with the full expectations of a significant rollback. Those are rollback- and lockout-proof contracts.

Of course they knew that.... They are trying to hold out to try to lose as little as they can...

I think it's an awful precedent if owners can sign large contracts and then take some of the money later. NHLPA is trying to put their foot down that the owners can lower their percentage if they want but they're not going to lower player contracts.

I don't think NFL or NBA cost players like money like Bettman tries to, talk about bush league.