ALL Spezza talk - to trade, not to trade, rant, rave etc.

111519 wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Urkie wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

SeawaySensFan wrote:If I'm willing to settle for guys who don't score but are lauded for doing "other things" then yeah, I'll settle for scoring from a guy who's paid to score.

Too bad he hasn't produced like the Spezza of 2005-2007 for two full calendar years now. The issue is NOT paying money for offensive production, which we can all agree comes with a hefty price tag (rightly or wrongly), but paying money for offensive production and NOT getting it. And the fact is, we haven't been getting it like we should from Spezza for 2 years now.

I happen to agree with SD here. The entire team sucked for 2 years. Heck, I don't think Sidney Crosby could have done that well here the last 2 years. The facts are, the goaltending blew, the defense blew and the coaches blew. You can't deny those facts unless you've been living in a shell these last 2 years. It's hard for any player to excel with those factors going on in the background.

And we all hate Heatley but those factors are why I think he wanted out. He didn't think this team could win.

Sidney Crosby walked into a bigger disaster than we ever had here when he joined PIT, and he still managed to put up enormous numbers. Exact same for Ovechkin when he joined WAS. Kovalchuk has put up great numbers playing on a Dung team for years, too. And the list goes on and on. Elite players produce, no matter what's going on around them. You'd have to be living under a rock for your entire life not to notice this.

So, why is Spezza the exception? Or rather, why is it that the fact that Spezza IS the exception not stick out or bother anyone else, or at least raise alarm bells?

I don't think theres a comparison between Crosby/Ovechkin and Spezza-maybe that's where the debate comes from. Do you really think the three of them are on the same level? the first two are captains, make almost 9 million a year and are superstars. Spezza is a very good first line centre. If you think they are on the same level, it puts your arguments in perspective.

111519 wrote:Spezza is our first line centre and makes 7 million a year because-he is a first line centre and thats what he would recieve if he was UFA.

I really don't understand the question.

rooneypoo wrote:

111519 wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Urkie wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

SeawaySensFan wrote:If I'm willing to settle for guys who don't score but are lauded for doing "other things" then yeah, I'll settle for scoring from a guy who's paid to score.

Too bad he hasn't produced like the Spezza of 2005-2007 for two full calendar years now. The issue is NOT paying money for offensive production, which we can all agree comes with a hefty price tag (rightly or wrongly), but paying money for offensive production and NOT getting it. And the fact is, we haven't been getting it like we should from Spezza for 2 years now.

I happen to agree with SD here. The entire team sucked for 2 years. Heck, I don't think Sidney Crosby could have done that well here the last 2 years. The facts are, the goaltending blew, the defense blew and the coaches blew. You can't deny those facts unless you've been living in a shell these last 2 years. It's hard for any player to excel with those factors going on in the background.

And we all hate Heatley but those factors are why I think he wanted out. He didn't think this team could win.

Sidney Crosby walked into a bigger disaster than we ever had here when he joined PIT, and he still managed to put up enormous numbers. Exact same for Ovechkin when he joined WAS. Kovalchuk has put up great numbers playing on a Dung team for years, too. And the list goes on and on. Elite players produce, no matter what's going on around them. You'd have to be living under a rock for your entire life not to notice this.

So, why is Spezza the exception? Or rather, why is it that the fact that Spezza IS the exception not stick out or bother anyone else, or at least raise alarm bells?

I don't think theres a comparison between Crosby/Ovechkin and Spezza-maybe that's where the debate comes from. Do you really think the three of them are on the same level? the first two are captains, make almost 9 million a year and are superstars. Spezza is a very good first line centre. If you think they are on the same level, it puts your arguments in perspective.

Dude, YOU brought up the Crosby comparison!

And no, I absolutely do NOT put Crosby and Spezza on the same level. But they are paid pretty close to the same amount. What $1.7 mil to players on multi-million dollar per year deals?

rooneypoo wrote:Sidney Crosby walked into a bigger disaster than we ever had here when he joined PIT, and he still managed to put up enormous numbers. Exact same for Ovechkin when he joined WAS. Kovalchuk has put up great numbers playing on a Dung team for years, too. And the list goes on and on. Elite players produce, no matter what's going on around them. You'd have to be living under a rock for your entire life not to notice this.

So, why is Spezza the exception? Or rather, why is it that the fact that Spezza IS the exception not stick out or bother anyone else, or at least raise alarm bells?

111519 wrote:

I brought up a Crosby comparison? don't think so, not recently anyways.

rooneypoo wrote:That is SUCH a dishonest turn in reasoning, SD. I'm embarrassed for you.

What, we're looking to Phillips, Gerber, Kelly, and Neil to be our primary offense now, like we do Spezza? We play these guys on the #1 line, surround them with the team's best talent, and give them #1 PP time? Hell no! These are all defensive players you're picking on (except Gerber, but there's no defending him or his contract, as you say). You don't measure these guys' contributions in offensive production, plain and simple, and it's dishonest of you to suggest so.

What's more, yes, Phillips has always lived up to his contract, then and now. Same with Neil, then and now. Fisher and Kelly had rough years last year, and EVERYONE noted it, often with extreme displeasure. Thing is, they've recovered nicely -- but what about Spezza?

This ISN'T about offensive production, and you know it. This is about the game Spezza plays, plain and simple. SSF said "I'm willing to settle for that kind of game if he produces." Then I said, "well, look, he ain't been producing." If the argument is, "we must keep Spezza because offense wins games, and he provides it" -- and, for the record, I personally would NEVER make a guy's stats the main basis of an argument as to why this or that player is essential to the team -- well then that argument doesn't hold a lot of water, now does it?

Don't twist things out of context here.

111519 wrote:rooneypoo, just a question,

if Spezza was an UFA this summer, where do you think he would end up and what do you think he would get paid.

111519 wrote:rooneypoo, just a question,

if Spezza was an UFA this summer, where do you think he would end up and what do you think he would get paid.

111519 wrote:no, where was that from?

rooneypoo wrote:
Sidney Crosby walked into a bigger disaster than we ever had here when he joined PIT, and he still managed to put up enormous numbers. Exact same for Ovechkin when he joined WAS. Kovalchuk has put up great numbers playing on a Dung team for years, too. And the list goes on and on. Elite players produce, no matter what's going on around them. You'd have to be living under a rock for your entire life not to notice this.

So, why is Spezza the exception? Or rather, why is it that the fact that Spezza IS the exception not stick out or bother anyone else, or at least raise alarm bells?

111519 wrote:no, where was that from?

SpezDispenser wrote:That's so incredibly unfair I have to laugh. Name me one player of Crosby or Ovechkin's caliber who are sauntering onto the free agent market. Kovalchuk? That'll be 10+ million apparently and he'll likely be signed before July 1.

Okay Rooney, I'll bite. I'll take Crosby or Ovechkin over Spezza. Can you make that happen?

SpezDispenser wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:That is SUCH a dishonest turn in reasoning, SD. I'm embarrassed for you.

What, we're looking to Phillips, Gerber, Kelly, and Neil to be our primary offense now, like we do Spezza? We play these guys on the #1 line, surround them with the team's best talent, and give them #1 PP time? Hell no! These are all defensive players you're picking on (except Gerber, but there's no defending him or his contract, as you say). You don't measure these guys' contributions in offensive production, plain and simple, and it's dishonest of you to suggest so.

What's more, yes, Phillips has always lived up to his contract, then and now. Same with Neil, then and now. Fisher and Kelly had rough years last year, and EVERYONE noted it, often with extreme displeasure. Thing is, they've recovered nicely -- but what about Spezza?

This ISN'T about offensive production, and you know it. This is about the game Spezza plays, plain and simple. SSF said "I'm willing to settle for that kind of game if he produces." Then I said, "well, look, he ain't been producing." If the argument is, "we must keep Spezza because offense wins games, and he provides it" -- and, for the record, I personally would NEVER make a guy's stats the main basis of an argument as to why this or that player is essential to the team -- well then that argument doesn't hold a lot of water, now does it?

Don't twist things out of context here.

BS Rooney. Before we were saddled with Paddock and Hartsburg, Spezza was one of the top play-making centers in the league. He brought fear to every opponent we faced, and while he still made turnovers, he was incredibly adept at taking pucks back and then setting up Heatley or Alfredsson for goals. For the first time since Bryan Murray we have a real coach here - and unfortunately Spezza's been injured for 20 games of it and never really got going one way or the other. Actually, he probably went the wrong way, whether he was trying too hard or whether it was because his back is in deep trouble, no one really knows. He comes back and exhibits the kind of play that we've been waiting for for a long, long time. If you're not seeing a glimpse of the player he was before his back issues flared up, then I would suggest that you, like Neely, seem to have a pre-determined dislike for him. Which is fine, I don't really care who likes Spezza and who doesn't, but as long as he's producing at this rate, I find no reason, nor can I forecast any reason, why he would stop.

What do you have to say about Heatley? He has his worst professional season in history here last year, then goes to SJ and is in the running for the Rocket. Is that coincidence? No.

Urkie wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:That's so incredibly unfair I have to laugh. Name me one player of Crosby or Ovechkin's caliber who are sauntering onto the free agent market. Kovalchuk? That'll be 10+ million apparently and he'll likely be signed before July 1.

Okay Rooney, I'll bite. I'll take Crosby or Ovechkin over Spezza. Can you make that happen?

I'd take any of those guys over Spezza too but the fact is that those players just aren't available.

I don't think Rooney should take the heat for that comparison either. I brought it up to make a point about how I don't think that those great players could have done a whole lot better. Would they have done better? Yes, but there production would have even dipped under Hartsburg.

As you brought up, Heatley is the perfect example. Last year he struggled, this year he could win the Rocket Richard.