ALL Spezza talk - to trade, not to trade, rant, rave etc.

If I'm willing to settle for guys who don't score but are lauded for doing "other things" then yeah, I'll settle for scoring from a guy who's paid to score.

[quote="rooneypoo"]

Cap'n Clutch wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

SeawaySensFan wrote:I don't think it's wrong to judge an offensive player by his stats. I also don't think it's wrong for an offensive player to be better at offense than he is at defense. I also think that creating and producing points contributes to winning.

That's just me though.

Sure. Judge Spezza by his production in the last two calendar years. Don't look like the numbers of a $7 mil player, do they?

That is a great barometer for Spezza...for the last two calendar years. Is it a great indicator of Spezza as a whole or Spezza in the future? I personally don't think it is.

While I agree recent playing history is important, i don't think it should be the deciding factor on the worth of a player. There are many examples of players who have a bad year only to be followed up by a record one. The history of the player (barring major injury) should be a good barometer of what to expect. If you have a player who is producing at a point per game and is only 27, one would expect him to play at a similar pace for the next few years-again barring injury.

I think we all know at this point, what we have in Spezza, we can wish and hope all we want that he turns into a superb two way player who suddenly develops grit, but it aint going to happen, or we could accept we have a superb play making centre, other teams would kill for, and surround him with great two way players with grit. Sure it would be great to have the complete package but, don't you think every GM and fan in the league is looking for that. God only made so many Alfie's, so if we are all waiting for Spezza or anyone else, to become the next Alfie we're all going to be dissapointed...

Lastly I wish people would stop bringing up his salary as if it justifies the need for him to be "grittier" He wasn't signed or given the contract to bring grit, he was signed to be a first line centre, make plays, and score goals-all of which he does and has done his entire carrer. If any of you seriously believe if he was an UFA this summer he would not recieve a similar contract, if not more, you're only fooling yourself-re: gomez, vanek, eric stall, etc, etc.

SeawaySensFan wrote:If I'm willing to settle for guys who don't score but are lauded for doing "other things" then yeah, I'll settle for scoring from a guy who's paid to score.

Too bad he hasn't produced like the Spezza of 2005-2007 for two full calendar years now. The issue is NOT paying money for offensive production, which we can all agree comes with a hefty price tag (rightly or wrongly), but paying money for offensive production and NOT getting it. And the fact is, we haven't been getting it like we should from Spezza for 2 years now.

rooneypoo wrote:

SeawaySensFan wrote:If I'm willing to settle for guys who don't score but are lauded for doing "other things" then yeah, I'll settle for scoring from a guy who's paid to score.

Too bad he hasn't produced like the Spezza of 2005-2007 for two full calendar years now. The issue is NOT paying money for offensive production, which we can all agree comes with a hefty price tag (rightly or wrongly), but paying money for offensive production and NOT getting it. And the fact is, we haven't been getting it like we should from Spezza for 2 years now.

Probably from an ill-conceived desire to have him turn into a two-way player.

rooneypoo wrote:

SeawaySensFan wrote:If I'm willing to settle for guys who don't score but are lauded for doing "other things" then yeah, I'll settle for scoring from a guy who's paid to score.

Too bad he hasn't produced like the Spezza of 2005-2007 for two full calendar years now. The issue is NOT paying money for offensive production, which we can all agree comes with a hefty price tag (rightly or wrongly), but paying money for offensive production and NOT getting it. And the fact is, we haven't been getting it like we should from Spezza for 2 years now.

I happen to agree with SD here. The entire team sucked for 2 years. Heck, I don't think Sidney Crosby could have done that well here the last 2 years. The facts are, the goaltending blew, the defense blew and the coaches blew. You can't deny those facts unless you've been living in a shell these last 2 years. It's hard for any player to excel with those factors going on in the background.

And we all hate Heatley but those factors are why I think he wanted out. He didn't think this team could win.

111519 wrote:

While I agree recent playing history is important, i don't think it should be the deciding factor on the worth of a player. There are many examples of players who have a bad year only to be followed up by a record one. The history of the player (barring major injury) should be a good barometer of what to expect. If you have a player who is producing at a point per game and is only 27, one would expect him to play at a similar pace for the next few years-again barring injury.

I think we all know at this point, what we have in Spezza, we can wish and hope all we want that he turns into a superb two way player who suddenly develops grit, but it aint going to happen, or we could accept we have a superb play making centre, other teams would kill for, and surround him with great two way players with grit. Sure it would be great to have the complete package but, don't you think every GM and fan in the league is looking for that. God only made so many Alfie's, so if we are all waiting for Spezza or anyone else, to become the next Alfie we're all going to be dissapointed...

Lastly I wish people would stop bringing up his salary as if it justifies the need for him to be "grittier" He wasn't signed or given the contract to bring grit, he was signed to be a first line centre, make plays, and score goals-all of which he does and has done his entire carrer. If any of you seriously believe if he was an UFA this summer he would not recieve a similar contract, if not more, you're only fooling yourself-re: gomez, vanek, eric stall, etc, etc.

A couple of issues here:

For every guy who has a bounce-back year, there are 3 who sign big contracts after career years and face stiff declines. Last year, I can think of Elias and Marleau as two players who seriously underachieved the year before and then stepped it up that next year. But the list of underachievers is muuuuch longer.

No one is asking Spezza to be a superb two-way player or Alfie or gritty. All we're asking for is a smart, strong, consistent game. Spezza would shut up all his detractors if he would just play the kind of game he's capable of doing -- in fact, the kind of game he's playing right now -- on a consistent basis. He doesn't have to smoke guys into the boards or get the Selke. He does, however, need to shoot more, drive the net hard, limit turnover and bad plays, and LEAD the charge rather than following along.

He can do it. He's doing it right now. But can he do it, game in and game out, for years to come? The last 5 games say yes. That last 2 years say no, resoundingly.

rooneypoo wrote:

SeawaySensFan wrote:If I'm willing to settle for guys who don't score but are lauded for doing "other things" then yeah, I'll settle for scoring from a guy who's paid to score.

Too bad he hasn't produced like the Spezza of 2005-2007 for two full calendar years now. The issue is NOT paying money for offensive production, which we can all agree comes with a hefty price tag (rightly or wrongly), but paying money for offensive production and NOT getting it. And the fact is, we haven't been getting it like we should from Spezza for 2 years now.

I hate how Spezza is now the whipping boy. If we had Redden, would we be having this discussion? As #1 centers go he is a legitimate #1 center. Is he the #1-#1 center no, but he is certainly in the top half. We are better with him than without him and last night, without his offensive play we would be talking about how the streak ended.

rooneypoo wrote:

SeawaySensFan wrote:If I'm willing to settle for guys who don't score but are lauded for doing "other things" then yeah, I'll settle for scoring from a guy who's paid to score.

Too bad he hasn't produced like the Spezza of 2005-2007 for two full calendar years now. The issue is NOT paying money for offensive production, which we can all agree comes with a hefty price tag (rightly or wrongly), but paying money for offensive production and NOT getting it. And the fact is, we haven't been getting it like we should from Spezza for 2 years now.

What I don't get though is whats the alternative? Take away Spezza and his 7 million. Now how do you replace him, and with who. AND how can you guarantee me who you replace him will be any more productive on THIS team. I can't guarantee you Spezza will be any better this year or next but, you can't either for any names you suggest to replace him. It's easy to argue someone would be better knowing it won't have to be proven...

Urkie wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

SeawaySensFan wrote:If I'm willing to settle for guys who don't score but are lauded for doing "other things" then yeah, I'll settle for scoring from a guy who's paid to score.

Too bad he hasn't produced like the Spezza of 2005-2007 for two full calendar years now. The issue is NOT paying money for offensive production, which we can all agree comes with a hefty price tag (rightly or wrongly), but paying money for offensive production and NOT getting it. And the fact is, we haven't been getting it like we should from Spezza for 2 years now.

I happen to agree with SD here. The entire team sucked for 2 years. Heck, I don't think Sidney Crosby could have done that well here the last 2 years. The facts are, the goaltending blew, the defense blew and the coaches blew. You can't deny those facts unless you've been living in a shell these last 2 years. It's hard for any player to excel with those factors going on in the background.

And we all hate Heatley but those factors are why I think he wanted out. He didn't think this team could win.

Sidney Crosby walked into a bigger disaster than we ever had here when he joined PIT, and he still managed to put up enormous numbers. Exact same for Ovechkin when he joined WAS. Kovalchuk has put up great numbers playing on a Dung team for years, too. And the list goes on and on. Elite players produce, no matter what's going on around them. You'd have to be living under a rock for your entire life not to notice this.

So, why is Spezza the exception? Or rather, why is it that the fact that Spezza IS the exception not stick out or bother anyone else, or at least raise alarm bells?

MurderOnIce wrote:

I hate how Spezza is now the whipping boy. If we had Redden, would we be having this discussion? As #1 centers go he is a legitimate #1 center. Is he the #1-#1 center no, but he is certainly in the top half. We are better with him than without him and last night, without his offensive play we would be talking about how the streak ended.

This is not a whipping boy thing. This is a "we're frightened for the future of this team" thing.

No argument about the other thing -- Spezza was great last night. Let's seem him play like that for a few months before we talk about him being a key cog in our team -- because if your highest paid, #1 centre isn't a key cog on your team, then why is he either of those things?

OK. I'm convinced...

Spezza and Kuba for Soupy and Sharp.

rooneypoo wrote:

Urkie wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

SeawaySensFan wrote:If I'm willing to settle for guys who don't score but are lauded for doing "other things" then yeah, I'll settle for scoring from a guy who's paid to score.

Too bad he hasn't produced like the Spezza of 2005-2007 for two full calendar years now. The issue is NOT paying money for offensive production, which we can all agree comes with a hefty price tag (rightly or wrongly), but paying money for offensive production and NOT getting it. And the fact is, we haven't been getting it like we should from Spezza for 2 years now.

I happen to agree with SD here. The entire team sucked for 2 years. Heck, I don't think Sidney Crosby could have done that well here the last 2 years. The facts are, the goaltending blew, the defense blew and the coaches blew. You can't deny those facts unless you've been living in a shell these last 2 years. It's hard for any player to excel with those factors going on in the background.

And we all hate Heatley but those factors are why I think he wanted out. He didn't think this team could win.

Sidney Crosby walked into a bigger disaster than we ever had here when he joined PIT, and he still managed to put up enormous numbers. Exact same for Ovechkin when he joined WAS. Kovalchuk has put up great numbers playing on a Dung team for years, too. And the list goes on and on. Elite players produce, no matter what's going on around them. You'd have to be living under a rock for your entire life not to notice this.

So, why is Spezza the exception? Or rather, why is it that the fact that Spezza IS the exception not stick out or bother anyone else, or at least raise alarm bells?

I would have thought the games he's played since returning from injury would have silenced this debate - at least until his first bad game. Evidently not.

It would seem that neither side of the argument is going to convince the other side to see things their way.

rooneypoo wrote:

Urkie wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

SeawaySensFan wrote:If I'm willing to settle for guys who don't score but are lauded for doing "other things" then yeah, I'll settle for scoring from a guy who's paid to score.

Too bad he hasn't produced like the Spezza of 2005-2007 for two full calendar years now. The issue is NOT paying money for offensive production, which we can all agree comes with a hefty price tag (rightly or wrongly), but paying money for offensive production and NOT getting it. And the fact is, we haven't been getting it like we should from Spezza for 2 years now.

I happen to agree with SD here. The entire team sucked for 2 years. Heck, I don't think Sidney Crosby could have done that well here the last 2 years. The facts are, the goaltending blew, the defense blew and the coaches blew. You can't deny those facts unless you've been living in a shell these last 2 years. It's hard for any player to excel with those factors going on in the background.

And we all hate Heatley but those factors are why I think he wanted out. He didn't think this team could win.

Sidney Crosby walked into a bigger disaster than we ever had here when he joined PIT, and he still managed to put up enormous numbers. Exact same for Ovechkin when he joined WAS. Kovalchuk has put up great numbers playing on a Dung team for years, too. And the list goes on and on. Elite players produce, no matter what's going on around them. You'd have to be living under a rock for your entire life not to notice this.

So, why is Spezza the exception? Or rather, why is it that the fact that Spezza IS the exception not stick out or bother anyone else, or at least raise alarm bells?

I don't think theres a comparison between Crosby/Ovechkin and Spezza-maybe that's where the debate comes from. Do you really think the three of them are on the same level? the first two are captains, make almost 9 million a year and are superstars. Spezza is a very good first line centre. If you think they are on the same level, it puts your arguments in perspective.

If Spezza didn't have a NMC kicking in on July 1st I don't think there would be much of a debate at this point.

111519 wrote:

What I don't get though is whats the alternative? Take away Spezza and his 7 million. Now how do you replace him, and with who. AND how can you guarantee me who you replace him will be any more productive on THIS team. I can't guarantee you Spezza will be any better this year or next but, you can't either for any names you suggest to replace him. It's easy to argue someone would be better knowing it won't have to be proven...

That's the smartest question you've ever asked.

The short answer is, I don't know. I don't like the situation we're in with Spezza, and it's a mistake to think that I do just because I'm raising the problem. But the reality is, we have a cap, Spezza is our highest paid centre, he takes control of his future when he gets that NMC in July -- and the question marks around him are there for everyone to see. We have to make a decision on him one way or the other by that time. I don't relish BM on that one, but I do trust him.

Realistically? I suppose, if it comes to a trade, you trade for D help and youth and depth, and you sign a replacement UFA centre of the Plekanec mold. Will that replacement be BETTER than Spezza? No. Will be be able to provide a similar level of production, of the 60-70 point range (remembering Spezza totalled 73 points last year), at a significantly reduced price? Quite probably. Even if your replacement only puts up 80% of Spezza's offense at 50% of the cost, you win.

Someone here said "people fixate on his cap figure too much". People who make statements like that seriously underestimate how central the cap is to everything in the NHL now. Ask Detroit.

111519 wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Urkie wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

SeawaySensFan wrote:If I'm willing to settle for guys who don't score but are lauded for doing "other things" then yeah, I'll settle for scoring from a guy who's paid to score.

Too bad he hasn't produced like the Spezza of 2005-2007 for two full calendar years now. The issue is NOT paying money for offensive production, which we can all agree comes with a hefty price tag (rightly or wrongly), but paying money for offensive production and NOT getting it. And the fact is, we haven't been getting it like we should from Spezza for 2 years now.

I happen to agree with SD here. The entire team sucked for 2 years. Heck, I don't think Sidney Crosby could have done that well here the last 2 years. The facts are, the goaltending blew, the defense blew and the coaches blew. You can't deny those facts unless you've been living in a shell these last 2 years. It's hard for any player to excel with those factors going on in the background.

And we all hate Heatley but those factors are why I think he wanted out. He didn't think this team could win.

Sidney Crosby walked into a bigger disaster than we ever had here when he joined PIT, and he still managed to put up enormous numbers. Exact same for Ovechkin when he joined WAS. Kovalchuk has put up great numbers playing on a Dung team for years, too. And the list goes on and on. Elite players produce, no matter what's going on around them. You'd have to be living under a rock for your entire life not to notice this.

So, why is Spezza the exception? Or rather, why is it that the fact that Spezza IS the exception not stick out or bother anyone else, or at least raise alarm bells?

I don't think theres a comparison between Crosby/Ovechkin and Spezza-maybe that's where the debate comes from. Do you really think the three of them are on the same level? the first two are captains, make almost 9 million a year and are superstars. Spezza is a very good first line centre. If you think they are on the same level, it puts your arguments in perspective.

Dude, YOU brought up the Crosby comparison!

And no, I absolutely do NOT put Crosby and Spezza on the same level. But they are paid pretty close to the same amount. What $1.7 mil to players on multi-million dollar per year deals?

Spezza is our first line centre and makes 7 million a year because-he is a first line centre and thats what he would recieve if he was UFA.

I really don't understand the question.

111519 wrote:Spezza is our first line centre and makes 7 million a year because-he is a first line centre and thats what he would recieve if he was UFA.

I really don't understand the question.

And this is the argument for keeping him, and for saying that he is indeed a $7 mil player? By that logic, every player on every deal in the NHL is worth their contract, because that's what they were paid.

I have no question for you.