Ottawa Senators (present and past) TIDBITS & QUICK HITS!

Ev wrote:nobody is trading a 1st for a 4th line grinder who plays 8 minutes a night. Why is this even being discussed? Nobody is winning or losing a Cup because of Neil.

Then why even trade for him? That's a comment that's based on absolutely nothing other than an opinion of a 4th line grinder. Guess what? Guys that show up and play those tough 8-10 minutes are what win cups.

So yah, if a team believe that's the last piece they need, Neil, Vermette, or otherwise you make that move.

SpezDispensed wrote:If that's the guy you really think takes you over the hump, but I don't see that personally.  Just like I didn't see the gaustad trade making sense either, but at least gaustad in a faceoff wizard which is huge in the playoffs.

I stand by my initial evaluation.  2nd rounder for Neil, so if you want that 1st you need to sweeten.

That's probably what he does for but a 27-30th overall is basically a 2nd rounder. Anyways, we'll see.

NEELY wrote:

Ev wrote:nobody is trading a 1st for a 4th line grinder who plays 8 minutes a night. Why is this even being discussed? Nobody is winning or losing a Cup because of Neil.

Then why even trade for him?  That's a comment that's based on absolutely nothing other than an opinion of a 4th line grinder.  Guess what?  Guys that show up and play those tough 8-10 minutes are what win cups.

So yah, if a team believe that's the last piece they need, Neil, Vermette, or otherwise you make that move.

Dude, come on.

You're not trading a 1st round pick for a 4th line grinder who can barely keep up with the play anymore. It's not even my opinion, it's just fact that he or anyone like him isn't going to be a huge difference maker either way. He's been getting lower and lower minutes as the season has gone on. And that's on a bottom 5 team.

Saying something like "Neil, Vermette or otherwise" is pretty much like saying "Michalek, Crosby, or otherwise". The two players are not even close and one would have a much bigger impact in winning a Cup than the other. You can try to add Neil and he would help your team a bit playing those tough minutes (which he doesn't really do, actually), but no chance in hell anybody is giving up anything even close to a 1st for him. They could easily get an equivalent player for a lot, lot less. Hell, Rob Klinkhammer has been dealt to like 5 different teams for nothing and he's a better player. The only way a team gives up a 1st for a player like that is desperation, but it still wouldn't be for a guy like Neil.

I like Neil but you gotta be realistic here.

By the way, all that ^ is coming from somebody who thinks late firsts are overrated and overvalued by fans.

No it isn't... it's saying if a team believe that the last piece they need to compete for the cup can be traded for then you make the move. I have no idea if Poile thinks or believes that but saying they wouldn't make a move for the piece they need at the cost of a very late 1st round pick is completely wrong.

B.Morrow for J.Morrow (late 1st)
D.Murray for 2, 2nd round picks
Gaustad for a late 1st

There are some other deals that are similar in value to what I have just said. It happens every single year.

If teams believe they need something to get them over the top they always pay for it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NHL_trade_deadline#2011.E2.80.9312_NHL_season

Take a look at the deals that go down.  Saying Neil for a protected late 1st round pick isn't possible, well based on history it certainly is (value wise).

Now, maybe Nashville makes a deal for say their 2nd and Salomaki, that makes sense too.  A lot of things can happen and I would prefer that the Sens get some more developed prospects for their players than late 1sts or 2nds but again, it's possible.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=130458

Better than a late 1st IMO if Neil is going to Nashville.

There's not really a point looking at the past (aside from the last few years) as guys like Neil aren't valued the same as they used to be, but go find me an example where a late first was traded for a 35+ year old 4th line grinder with little skill.

Gaustad is a decent 3rd line centre who was 30 at the time and who can at least get you the puck by winning a lot of faceoffs.

Hell, the Sens wouldn't trade a late first of their own for Troy Brouwer three years ago. A Cup winning second line 30 goal power forward. And that's when they had multiple firsts.

Look at last year alone. Derek Dorsett traded for a 3rd round pick. 7 years younger, better player than Neil in all facets.

I will do cartwheels if we got a 1st for Neil, but it's just not happening.

We'll see, my entire point was that a late 1st is what any team would pay for the piece that would get them over the top.

If someone were to tell any GM in the league that player x would score an OT winner in the conference finals to get their team to the cup but you have to send over the 29th overall pick, every single one of them would do it.

Ev wrote:nobody is trading a 1st for a 4th line grinder who plays 8 minutes a night. Why is this even being discussed? Nobody is winning or losing a Cup because of Neil.

The only reason he plays 8 minutes a night is because Camoron would rather give minutes to the likes of Lazar.

Which makes complete sense on a team that's trying to develop younger players and has no chance of making the playoffs.

If and when Neil is traded they are going to have to find a way to get someone who fits his role in pretty short order but given his age and role in the room right now he isn't a guy that's going to help the Sens anymore than he already has. I and a lot of other people love Neil and what he has brought and still can bring but he and Phillips roles on this team are very minor at this point.

This is all part of building and it sucks but yah, it has to happen.

NEELY wrote:Which makes complete sense on a team that's trying to develop younger players and has no chance of making the playoffs.

If and when Neil is traded they are going to have to find a way to get someone who fits his role in pretty short order but given his age and role in the room right now he isn't a guy that's going to help the Sens anymore than he already has.  I and a lot of other people love Neil and what he has brought and still can bring but he and Phillips roles on this team are very minor at this point.

This is all part of building and it sucks but yah, it has to happen.

Anyway, my point about his playing time is it's less about him and more about the team and who they want to play the bigger minutes.

Any team that trades for Neil knows what they're getting even if some Ottawa fans don't know what they already have.

Neil is an ideal 4th liner for any contending team, he has a lot of hockey left in him.

Also, for a team like Nashville looking for some toughness and grit and the guy who can play a regular shift, if they go into next season not having that guy and getting bounced in the first two rounds they are going to pay a lot in terms of $ and term... Neil is a very cheap contract that can probably be extended and that's worth something as well.

Our team already lacks some toughness, so if Neil does indeed get traded, they better have a plan for someone to come in who will protect the boys. Neil would fight anyone...the only other guy we have remotely similar is BoroCop.

NEELY wrote:http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=130458

Better than a late 1st IMO if Neil is going to Nashville.

I'd rather have the first. We have a lot of tweeners like him, I thought.

Wouldn't say he's a tweener... would say he's Prince with a little more jam. Not sure a late first or 2nd would be better than a somewhat developed prospect.

tim1_2 wrote:Our team already lacks some toughness, so if Neil does indeed get traded, they better have a plan for someone to come in who will protect the boys. Neil would fight anyone...the only other guy we have remotely similar is BoroCop.

It's going to be a huge hole.  

Zack Kassian. He's exactly the type of player that can fill a Neil type role with the added ability of scoring 20 goals at some point in the NHL. He's an obtainable player.

NEELY wrote:

tim1_2 wrote:Our team already lacks some toughness, so if Neil does indeed get traded, they better have a plan for someone to come in who will protect the boys. Neil would fight anyone...the only other guy we have remotely similar is BoroCop.

It's going to be a huge hole.  

Zack Kassian.  He's exactly the type of player that can fill a Neil type role with the added ability of scoring 20 goals at some point in the NHL.  He's an obtainable player.

I'd be willing to try that.