Ottawa Senators off-season talk

Kane is pretty dynamic and makes very fast decisions, he's not gonna make as much turnovers, so he won't have to correct them.

If Spezza ever changes, he will have to work harder than anyone else adn quite frankly I don't think he has the mental toughness to battle through adversity, because in 7+ years in the league he never succeeded to turn things around. The longer it takes, the harder.

marakh wrote:Kane is pretty dynamic and makes very fast decisions, he's not gonna make as much turnovers, so he won't have to correct them.

If Spezza ever changes, he will have to work harder than anyone else adn quite frankly I don't think he has the mental toughness to battle through adversity, because in 7+ years in the league he never succeeded to turn things around. The longer it takes, the harder.

Spezza makes the same quick strike decisions, the difference is, Spezza makes passes behind him while Kane doesn't give a Dung and moves straight at the D-men. The giveaway numbers are probably pretty close, Spezza is the same style of player, but instead of a shoot first like Kane, he's a pass-first.

The analogy was that neither are captain material, but both propel their respective offences. The difference between teams is the level of talent backing up Kane in Chicago IMO.

Here, if Spezza wants to take it to the next level, just follow this:

Spezza: Games - 60, Giveaways - 58, Takeaways - 39

Alfredsson: Games - 70, Giveaways - 45, Takeaways - 76

It's not that tough to figure out IMO. That's standing between Spezza being good to being great. Hopefully the core around him will continue to improve, that's definitely a part of it too, but he's got to work on getting that puck back.

SpezDispenser wrote:Here, if Spezza wants to take it to the next level, just follow this:

Spezza: Games - 60, Giveaways - 58, Takeaways - 39

Alfredsson: Games - 70, Giveaways - 45, Takeaways - 76

It's not that tough to figure out IMO. That's standing between Spezza being good to being great. Hopefully the core around him will continue to improve, that's definitely a part of it too, but he's got to work on getting that puck back.

And Alfreddson has a few more years on Spezza. I wonder what the numbers would look like if you used Alfreddsons number when he was Spezza's age now.

Alfredsson and Spezza are poor examples on my part because Alfredsson's a Selke nominee, the whole 9, but that's what has to happen. That and we have to continue to tweak our lineup while we wait for the Big 3 on D to mature and Lehner.

In the meantime for the millionth time I recommend against moving our most creative player offensively. It sucks when you expect someone to lead because of their salary. Spezza can't lead, he doesn't take those pucks back, he isn't hard enough to play against, he never will be. You pay him to compliment your guys like Fisher - who I realize I'm really not that fond of. I like Fisher, but if he were traded I'd be 100% fine with it. But Spezza needs to be surrounded by the Regins, the Kelly's and hopefully some sniping talent as well.

Michalek might be the key to Spezza over time as well. We tried it this year and it didn't really work, but a Regin/Spezza/Michalek line would be very interesting IMO. Regin adds a ton to that trio.

SpezDispenser wrote:Alfredsson and Spezza are poor examples on my part because Alfredsson's a Selke nominee, the whole 9, but that's what has to happen. That and we have to continue to tweak our lineup while we wait for the Big 3 on D to mature and Lehner.

In the meantime for the millionth time I recommend against moving our most creative player offensively. It sucks when you expect someone to lead because of their salary. Spezza can't lead, he doesn't take those pucks back, he isn't hard enough to play against, he never will be. You pay him to compliment your guys like Fisher - who I realize I'm really not that fond of. I like Fisher, but if he were traded I'd be 100% fine with it. But Spezza needs to be surrounded by the Regins, the Kelly's and hopefully some sniping talent as well.

Michalek might be the key to Spezza over time as well. We tried it this year and it didn't really work, but a Regin/Spezza/Michalek line would be very interesting IMO. Regin adds a ton to that trio.

This right here says it all in the Spezza debate. For $7 million, he should be the guy being complimented.

If Spezza is there to compliment a often inconsistent 25 (at best) goal man, we are in serious trouble.

SpezDispenser wrote:Spezza's a very creative player - and with that comes turnovers. It's not that that bothers people, it's the fact that he doesn't work hard enough to get it back.

Now, more than ever though, you don't trade him. I equate Spezza to Kane in Chicago - although arguably Kane is a little better. Kane isn't the guy that you hang your hat on to win it all for you, he's a complimentary player to Toews, Hossa, Sharp, Keith, Seabrook etc. He's the guy that's a little selfish, a little sloppy, but is trying to create things, while the other guys are being a little more responsible and providing a little more leadership.

Does Chicago still win the West without Kane? Maybe, maybe not, but he's not a detriment. The same way Spezza would never be a detriment here.

It's when and where thats the problem. He turns the pucks over in the worst spots at the worst times. He can be creative all he wants, but in a 1-0 game at the blueline as an example is about as bad as you can get. That is a rookie mistake, nothing short of it and even then, some rookies are smart enough to realize that a mistake there could be there series, but not Spezza, he wants to do it all himself.

Kane, for the record, is a winger and doesnt have the resposibility a 1st line center has. Spezza isnt responsible enough, on or off the ice to be the 1st line center, highest paid, center piece of a hockey team. That's the issue. He says he wants to be then cries about it when he is held accoutable... not sure what else to say about the guy in that aspect. Fans in Ottawa are as informed about the game as anyone. If you're kid says "I want to be treated like an adult" then when he screws up, he gets punished and cries about it... basically the same thing here. He's all talk.

hemlock wrote:
This right here says it all in the Spezza debate. For $7 million, he should be the guy being complimented.

If Spezza is there to compliment a often inconsistent 25 (at best) goal man, we are in serious trouble.

But Spezza never will be that guy, he'll always be the Kane to the Sens' Alfie/Regin/the next elite level forward we get. Fisher was a poor example and Alfie is starting to wind down, the challenge is to find the next Alfie.

Phoenix30 wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:Here, if Spezza wants to take it to the next level, just follow this:

Spezza: Games - 60, Giveaways - 58, Takeaways - 39

Alfredsson: Games - 70, Giveaways - 45, Takeaways - 76

It's not that tough to figure out IMO. That's standing between Spezza being good to being great. Hopefully the core around him will continue to improve, that's definitely a part of it too, but he's got to work on getting that puck back.

And Alfreddson has a few more years on Spezza. I wonder what the numbers would look like if you used Alfreddsons number when he was Spezza's age now.

Alfi had 3 years in the league at that point so it's a bad comparrison to start with.

Spezza just finished his 7th season in the league and he hasnt changed all that much. Sure, he's improved his all around game a small amount in that time, but he isnt anywhere near where he should be. His time line is basically the same as Datsyuk and both have pretty close to the same amount of tallent, yet, Datsyuk his head and shoulders better then him, not even in the same conversation really. So what's the difference? Work ethic, attitude, compete level, and a general will to be better all around and win. There are guys that like winning and others that despise losing, Spezza is a guy that likes to win, it doesnt bother him all that much if he loses IMO, just as long as he says he wants to be the guy.

SpezDispenser wrote:

hemlock wrote:
This right here says it all in the Spezza debate. For $7 million, he should be the guy being complimented.

If Spezza is there to compliment a often inconsistent 25 (at best) goal man, we are in serious trouble.

But Spezza never will be that guy, he'll always be the Kane to the Sens' Alfie/Regin/the next elite level forward we get. Fisher was a poor example and Alfie is starting to wind down, the challenge is to find the next Alfie.

I don't think Kane is the lightning rod for criticism in Chicago that Spezza is in Ottawa though is he?

And I agree, Spezza will never be that guy, which is why in a perfect world, he and his $7 million cap-hit get bounced. Plausible? Perhaps not, but imo, under no circumstances should a $ million player play 2nd fiddle to a "lesser" player. Fisher is a 2nd line guy, regardless of everything he brings. He should be riding Spezza's coattails, not the other way around.

hemlock wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:

hemlock wrote:
This right here says it all in the Spezza debate. For $7 million, he should be the guy being complimented.

If Spezza is there to compliment a often inconsistent 25 (at best) goal man, we are in serious trouble.

But Spezza never will be that guy, he'll always be the Kane to the Sens' Alfie/Regin/the next elite level forward we get. Fisher was a poor example and Alfie is starting to wind down, the challenge is to find the next Alfie.

I don't think Kane is the lightning rod for criticism in Chicago that Spezza is in Ottawa though is he?

And I agree, Spezza will never be that guy, which is why in a perfect world, he and his $7 million cap-hit get bounced. Plausible? Perhaps not, but imo, under no circumstances should a $ million player play 2nd fiddle to a "lesser" player. Fisher is a 2nd line guy, regardless of everything he brings. He should be riding Spezza's coattails, not the other way around.

Kane also has 3 years in the league vs Spezza's 7. I would still say Kane is more responsible then Spezza in situations where a dump in is needed, a chip and out, or just holding on to the puck along the boards. Spezza still doesnt do this and it doesnt matter what the situation is, he is always trying to do something even when it is needed, wanted, or just generally isnt the right time to do so. I just dont get how he still doesnt get this.

Hoags wrote:*shrug* it comes with the territory. Disappointing that he'd whine to Murray about it but hockey players are human too I guess. I don't know how I'd take being boo'd by a full hockey area either.

I'd rather have Spezza than Dany F'n Heatley though.

When you say you want to be the man and then are held accountable for it, it says very little about his overall character then anything. If you didnt want to "be the man" 1) dont sign the biggest contract in franchise history. 2) dont come out and say "I want to be the man" in public for everyone to hear. 3) Dont cry about being boo'd when you play like crap and dont pull your weight when everyone else is.

I dont feel an ounce of sympathy for the guy.

hemlock wrote:
I don't think Kane is the lightning rod for criticism in Chicago that Spezza is in Ottawa though is he?

And I agree, Spezza will never be that guy, which is why in a perfect world, he and his $7 million cap-hit get bounced. Plausible? Perhaps not, but imo, under no circumstances should a $ million player play 2nd fiddle to a "lesser" player. Fisher is a 2nd line guy, regardless of everything he brings. He should be riding Spezza's coattails, not the other way around.

Yeah, no one rides Fisher's coattails...no one. Therein lies some of the Sens problems right there, Fisher's a real nice player, but until he learns some consistency, then the pressure will always be squarely on Spezza's shoulders.

Kane isn't a lightning rod in Chicago - yet, because they're winning and they're deep, deep, deep. Next year that depth will be zapped and Kane might indeed be the lightning rod.

N4L wrote:
Kane also has 3 years in the league vs Spezza's 7. I would still say Kane is more responsible then Spezza in situations where a dump in is needed, a chip and out, or just holding on to the puck along the boards. Spezza still doesnt do this and it doesnt matter what the situation is, he is always trying to do something even when it is needed, wanted, or just generally isnt the right time to do so. I just dont get how he still doesnt get this.

I don't know how he doesn't get it yet either, I really don't. My comparison to Kane is that Spezza is a similarly highly paid guy who'll never be the "go-to" leader on the Hawks, instead he's the compliment to Toews, Sharp etc. Sometimes you pay just to have the creativity of a player like that, even if he only plays 18 minutes and is interchanged line to line and for PPs.

This team is thirsty for the next Alfie - which obviously Spezza is not, but before we cast aside Spezza, we need to find that player, that elite level forward talent to balance out the forward roster. It's cyclical, Spezza can absolutely produce with talent like Alfie and Heatley circa 2007, but now we need that new Alfie and that new Heatley. It's obviously very difficult, but that's where the Sens stand in regards to Spezza IMO.

No one can ever fool themselves again into thinking that Spezza will be a leader on this team. He's an offensive weapon, nothing more, nothing less. And again, I know what you're gonna say, he's not producing enough to be the highest paid offensive weapon, but it's a circle again, the talent around Spezza has nose-dived spectacularly from the Cup run where it was vintage Alfie and Heatley. That Alfie no longer exists, nor does that Heatley (if it really ever did).

Those were two ELITE, maybe the best wingers in the game at the time playing with him, Iginla was the other one that could be 1, 2 or 3. Spezza was a product of an offensive powerhouse in a weak Eastern Conferance. Spezza may never hit a PPG again in The NHL and it wouldnt surprise me one bit.

He's a tallented guy that has basically stalled in his development. Like I said, he peaked early in his career, he wont be any better then he was 4, 5 years ago.

Spezza was a whole 3 points off a PPG this season. Saying he'll never
reach that point again is extremely short sighted on your behalf.

And at no point in his career was Heatley ever a top 2 winger in the
game. Both Spezza and Heatley both road the coat tails of Alfie's prime.
That isn't to say they both aren't top liners though, which seems to be
the argument you're trying to make.

stempniaksen wrote:Spezza was a whole 3 points off a PPG this season. Saying he'll never
reach that point again is extremely short sighted on your behalf.

And at no point in his career was Heatley ever a top 2 winger in the
game. Both Spezza and Heatley both road the coat tails of Alfie's prime.
That isn't to say they both aren't top liners though, which seems to be
the argument you're trying to make.

I said he may never hit a PPG again and I should probably be more clear. He may never surpass 82 points again. Between staying healthy, playing consistant, and Ottawa's desire to play an in your face, responsible, two way game, Spezza very well may never hit 80 points again, Im not saying he wont, Im saying it's a possibility. There are no 40-50 goal scorers in Ottawa right now and no true snipper, Spezza is going to have a hell of a time finding consistancy in his game without one. Unless he turns into that solid 2 way player that can put up between 65-75 points, he's going to be in a lot of trouble.

Im so sick of the PPG argument because in the long and short of things, it doesnt matter. What matters is a number 1 center truly buying into a TEAM concept and doing what's needed for the TEAM to win. The TEAM needs a guy that can be counted on, trusted, and looked up to at that number 1 spot, it's plain and simple.

Even looking at MTL, Philly, Chicago, and SJ, all of them have leadership in that number 1 center role. Gomez is by no means a true number 1 guy but he does bring a ton of leadership, a two way game, and someone that can be looked up to and trusted to do what the team wants. I would no way take him over Spezza, but what he brings to the Canadians is what Ottawa needs in that same spot. Philly and Chicago, no contest, their number 1 guys are head and shoulders better then Spezza and that's about as arguable as the earth being round. San Jose, Thornton might not be that guy that can take a team to the promise land but he has still been a captain in The NHL, still wears an "A" in SJ, and still is looked up to by his fellow team mates.

The time to be patient with Spezza is over. Even if he isnt traded (which he probably wont be, but I will say it's 50/50 right now based on Boo Boo's info) he will still be held accountable as well as he should be by fans for the next 5 years. He better start buying into what the team is selling because he has felt very little of what The Sens fans could throw at him, very little. Imagine 5 years more of this kind of talk if he doesnt get his game in order... he complains to his boss now, imagine what he will be saying about The Ottawa Fans after another couple years?

Also, Heatley was off the charts when he first came to Ottawa in his first two years (regular season). He was widely reguarded as the best LW in the game at that point, Alfi, well, he's Alfi.

N4L wrote:Those were two ELITE, maybe the best wingers in the game at the time playing with him, Iginla was the other one that could be 1, 2 or 3. Spezza was a product of an offensive powerhouse in a weak Eastern Conferance. Spezza may never hit a PPG again in The NHL and it wouldnt surprise me one bit.

He's a tallented guy that has basically stalled in his development. Like I said, he peaked early in his career, he wont be any better then he was 4, 5 years ago.

He'll hit a PPG next year, it's not enough though. And the reasons he can't do more is that we're weak at the wing position comparatively to 2007. Heatley was elite, but not because he's an exceptional player, he got open, Spezza hit him with passes every time. Playing with Alfie raised both of their games as well and we need that again. But we don't have that player in the system yet.

The more I think about it, Spezza's necessary here but without wingers to play with he's obviously much less effective.

I'm okay with him being a defacto number 2 center and coming out to man the PP. But again, there's no one in the system capable of being more offensively creative than Spezza.

In a perfect world you have Brad Richards centering Regin and Alfredsson, then Spezza centering Michalek and Cullen, but alas, this is a cap era, not a perfect world. Richards and Spezza create your 1-2 punch at center and are 100% interchangeable. Richards not having a great game? Spezza is elevated, Spezza not having a great game, you lean on Richards a little more. Right now we have Mike Fisher backing Spezza up...enough said.