GAME 4 - 2010 Stanley Cup GAME DAY: Ottawa Senators (1) @ Pittsburgh Penguins (2), Tuesday Apr. 20, 2010 - 7:00PM EST.

Cap'n Clutch wrote:

N4L wrote:

PKC wrote:

N4L wrote:

SeawaySensFan wrote:

N4L wrote:I think you deal Spezza before you deal Fisher, salary isnt a huge issue at this point.

Can you replace 80-90 points? Can you replace hard work and mixed results?

If he wa sputting up those kind of numbers then it would be a little esier to make that arguement. He could get 150 points next year and he would fold in the playoffs, The Sens dont need it and it will hurt them having a guy like that in the end.

Build young tallent with old character. There is a ton coming into Ottawa right now, both upfront and on the blueline.

I've gotta say, I love Zack Smith's character. The kid could definitely develop into a true playoff forward.

SMith was fantastic. He's on this team next year, no doubt in my mind.

Who's gone to make room for him?

Alfie - Spezza (Do you really beleive he'll be moved or just hope) - Regin
Michalek - Cullen - Kovalev
Foligno - Fisher - Winchester
Ruutu - Kelly - Neil


Even if you assume Spezza is traded there will most likely be another roster forward coming back to take the vacancy left behind so again who comes out for Smith?

Don't get me wrong I think he played great BTW.

Foligno has genuinely regressed this year. I figured the crash bang playoff style hockey would suit him. He's wilted and faded. He Spezza'd himself.

N4L wrote:OMG obviously Alfi wont have a chance at a cup in Ottawa, that's been known for a long time, at least it should have been.

Depends. If he plays 3 more years, he could get lucky and come close in the third year.

SeawaySensFan wrote:

N4L wrote:Nope, but again, you are building youth and a younger tallent might emerge with Fisher's work ethic and heart with more skill then he has. That's the point here, Spezza, you might get someone with a less skill then Spezza but more then Fisher, looks at Spezza and his example, and then he isnt good enough or doesnt work hard enough to stay in The NHL.

You think if Regin played like Spezza and not like Alfi we would be talking about him in the same light right now? I dont.

I don't completely disagree but I doubt you can move Spezza's contract and I'm also tired of the inconsistent 2nd line which has had one constant for years now.

The Sens are not a complete team, that's for sure. Is Spezza not moveable? Not yet.

SpezDispenser wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:
I'll tell you what. If Fleury and the Penguins improve next round and make it to the Conference finals then I may start to drink the kool-aid. If Fleury and the Pens makee it back to the Finals then I'll drink some of that kool-aid. If the Pens aren't embarrassed in the Finals, assuming the make it, then I'll drink a whole jug of the stuff. For now, this ain't the 80's, Crosby ain't Gretzky and never will be, and MAF ain't Fuhr.

That'll kill the Pens unless Varlemov or whoever they face poops the bed, MAF is the weak link - and I don't understand how he's won a Cup - amazing defensive plays and a five man unit on the ice and the odd great save. MAF is simply no longer good enough to win.

However, Crosby ain't Gretzky? You might be right Clutch, he's better than Gretzky. That's right, I'm saying it right now, Crosby is better than Gretzky and he's better than Lemieux. He's quite possibly the most dominating hockey player in history.

It's tough to take you seriously when you jump on band wagons like you change your underwear. First it was AO and how the game of Hockey was invented because this guy was eventually going to be born and lace them up to play and now Crosby is the best player to ever step onto the ice? Not buyin' it.

If Cullen isn't retained, then Smith moves right in to that spot.

SeawaySensFan wrote:

N4L wrote:

SeawaySensFan wrote:

N4L wrote:I think you deal Spezza before you deal Fisher, salary isnt a huge issue at this point.

Can you replace 80-90 points? Can you replace hard work and mixed results?

If he wa sputting up those kind of numbers then it would be a little esier to make that arguement. He could get 150 points next year and he would fold in the playoffs, The Sens dont need it and it will hurt them having a guy like that in the end.

Build young tallent with old character. There is a ton coming into Ottawa right now, both upfront and on the blueline.

Fair enough. If that happens, would Mike Fisher step it up enough to make up for Spezza folding? Not likely.

I would trade Fisher before Spezza if possible, but this is based on having Spezza/Regin/Kelly/Smith as opposed to Fisher/Regin/Kelly/Smith. Hard work is great but talent is necessary as well.

I agree, but when does tallent become just "only tallent". What kind of message does it send to the young guys coming up in the organization you can do whatever you want as long as you have tallent?

This team needs to be built with true character and hard work. Spezza is on an Island to himself in terms of that.

Dash wrote:If Cullen isn't retained, then Smith moves right in to that spot.

Seriously! Over pay for this guy if you're going to over pay for anyone.

As for Foligno he certainly had a horrible playoff but he was really stepping up his game before the leg injury. He's still young and I would hate to give up on the guy this soon.

RobbyJ wrote:

SeawaySensFan wrote:

N4L wrote:

SeawaySensFan wrote:

N4L wrote:I think you deal Spezza before you deal Fisher, salary isnt a huge issue at this point.

Can you replace 80-90 points? Can you replace hard work and mixed results?

If he wa sputting up those kind of numbers then it would be a little esier to make that arguement. He could get 150 points next year and he would fold in the playoffs, The Sens dont need it and it will hurt them having a guy like that in the end.

Build young tallent with old character. There is a ton coming into Ottawa right now, both upfront and on the blueline.

Fair enough. If that happens, would Mike Fisher step it up enough to make up for Spezza folding? Not likely.

I would trade Fisher before Spezza if possible, but this is based on having Spezza/Regin/Kelly/Smith as opposed to Fisher/Regin/Kelly/Smith. Hard work is great but talent is necessary as well.

What if we could poach Marleau off of the free-agency line to replace Spezza?

PKC wrote:
I just wanna know if you ever watched Gretzky and Mario in their primes?

I did, this is a more complete player. His compete level is off the charts, he's strong, he's creative, he's deceptive, he has the ability to make scrubs appear to be great player like Dupuis and Guerin (really? Wow, we have better wingers), he never gives up on a play, he hits, he leads, he won the Rocket Richard, was in the running for the Art Ross in a year where scoring is down. Now...on to the fun stuff. He's 22, he's won a Stanley Cup, captain's the team, he's won an Olympic Gold, he's scoring at a 2.75 points per game pace in the playoffs so far, he dominates the game in every single facet.

Marleau is just as bad as Spezza, just a better player. He wont be coming to The East anyways.

A guy The Sens might be able to get their hands on in a little bit is Brad Richards.

PKC wrote:
What if we could poach Marleau off of the free-agency line to replace Spezza?

You want to acquire one of the biggest chokers in playoff history? At least Spezza was the number one center on a team that went to the Finals, Marleau does nothing but lose in the playoffs. It's actually amazing to watch.

SpezDispenser wrote:

PKC wrote:
I just wanna know if you ever watched Gretzky and Mario in their primes?

I did, this is a more complete player. His compete level is off the charts, he's strong, he's creative, he's deceptive, he has the ability to make scrubs appear to be great player like Dupuis and Guerin (really? Wow, we have better wingers), he never gives up on a play, he hits, he leads, he won the Rocket Richard, was in the running for the Art Ross in a year where scoring is down. Now...on to the fun stuff. He's 22, he's won a Stanley Cup, captain's the team, he's won an Olympic Gold, he's scoring at a 2.75 points per game pace in the playoffs so far, he dominates the game in every single facet.

Outside of scoring the gold winning goal Crosby was virtually invisible against elite talent. If he's so dominating he should have been skating circles around the best of the best in Vancouver. 1 big goal, regardless of how big, doesn't erase the rest of that Olympic performance in my eyes. Mario Lemieux was off the charts good in his World Cup and Olympic gold performances and was truly dominant on the big stage.

SeawaySensFan wrote:All I know is that we outscored Pittsburgh 4 - 3 after Elliott was pulled and you could see the difference in how the team was playing.

As we all said prior to the game, they had to play that way for 60 minutes. They didn't. So, once again, we beat ourselves.

I've been too angry to post until now but this is pretty much how I feel.

I agree with N4L now about Spezza being miscast as a #1 and all that.

BUT

This entire team team played like crap until Elliott was pulled. It's a team sport and I refuse to pin the blame on any one person.

It was an entirely different team when Neil and Alfie scored and then Cullen's hit that popped that glass partion thingy off.

Where was that intensity in the 1st period ??? I'm not one to agree with Cherry but he was totally right that we were playing like amateurs. Where was the screen in front of Fleury ?

This goes for the entire team, from Elliott outward and right down to Clouston who made a big stink about being prepared for the playoffs and this entire team didn't elevate their game to the level needed to beat Pittsburgh.

Sure some players who make more $$ are more guilty than others and some of our rookies have been surprisingly good but I didn't get the sense the Sens wanted it as bad as the Pens clearly do.

Except for Alfie and our promising young players I saw blow up this team into smithereens. We're the Sharks of the East, a good team that refuses to bring it when it matters.

Cap'n Clutch wrote:
It's tough to take you seriously when you jump on band wagons like you change your underwear. First it was AO and how the game of Hockey was invented because this guy was eventually going to be born and lace them up to play and now Crosby is the best player to ever step onto the ice? Not buyin' it.

Have you not watched? Crosby turn it up when the chips are down, turns it up! Ovechkin has faded in the face of adversity lately, but these two guys are generational talents. The best of this era. Are they on par with Gretzky and Lemieux? Absolutely. Are they better? Impossible to actually say that for certain, but all one has to do it watch them to get a sense of how incredible they are.

Cap'n Clutch wrote:
Outside of scoring the gold winning goal Crosby was virtually invisible against elite talent. If he's so dominating he should have been skating circles around the best of the best in Vancouver. 1 big goal, regardless of how big, doesn't erase the rest of that Olympic performance in my eyes. Mario Lemieux was off the charts good in his World Cup and Olympic gold performances and was truly dominant on the big stage.

I don't think you can appreciate how hard it is to go up against Zetterberg, Datsyuk and Lidstrom and win a 7 game series, or you wouldn't be saying that. I also think it may have slipped your mind that Crosby was a massive factor in the 7 games series win over the Caps - who have their fair share of elite talent.

SpezDispenser wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:
It's tough to take you seriously when you jump on band wagons like you change your underwear. First it was AO and how the game of Hockey was invented because this guy was eventually going to be born and lace them up to play and now Crosby is the best player to ever step onto the ice? Not buyin' it.

Have you not watched? Crosby turn it up when the chips are down, turns it up! Ovechkin has faded in the face of adversity lately, but these two guys are generational talents. The best of this era. Are they on par with Gretzky and Lemieux? Absolutely. Are they better? Impossible to actually say that for certain, but all one has to do it watch them to get a sense of how incredible they are.

I have watched and I watched Mario Lemieux very closely as he's my favourite all time NHL player so my view of him is of course biased. You flat out said Crosby is the best player in history and are now saying it's impossible to say for certain. Crosby may yet be one of the best elite to ever play but he's not there yet IMO. He's top 5 of players still playing today but best in the history of the game? Give him time to build a career first before you anoint him the best ever.

SpezDispenser wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:
Outside of scoring the gold winning goal Crosby was virtually invisible against elite talent. If he's so dominating he should have been skating circles around the best of the best in Vancouver. 1 big goal, regardless of how big, doesn't erase the rest of that Olympic performance in my eyes. Mario Lemieux was off the charts good in his World Cup and Olympic gold performances and was truly dominant on the big stage.

I don't think you can appreciate how hard it is to go up against Zetterberg, Datsyuk and Lidstrom and win a 7 game series, or you wouldn't be saying that. I also think it may have slipped your mind that Crosby was a massive factor in the 7 games series win over the Caps - who have their fair share of elite talent.

But Crosby is on another level and the best in history right? I wasn't talking about the Stanley Cup I was talking Olympics when the best of the best are on the ice and the top players to ever play the game excel and dominate, if they are the best ever, in situations like that. Crosby did not. Not saying he won't or can't as he's still very early in his career.

Just look at the Canada - Russia Summit series (I was too young to watch it live), Canada Cups/World Cups, Olympics.