Kessel to The Leafs

N4L wrote:

Kovalfie wrote:Is it just me or does two 1sts and a 2nd seem like more than Cheechoo, Michalek, and a 2nd?

I dunno... is Kessel that much better the Michalek himself? About 3 years age difference, Michalek is faster, stronger, and produces at the same level, more complete. I would say Kessel for Michalek straight up would have been 100% even.

Throw in Cheechoo and a 2nd... I say its about the same, buuuuut that's just me.

EDIT: Actually, no, Kessel's return was better... I still like what we got for Heatley though.

Of course he's more complete. Kessel's 21.

On the other hand, MM's never broken the 30 goal mark while Kessel was on pace for a 40+ goal season last year.

We'll see if he does that in Toronto, haha. 1st place team vs a last place team. If he hits 30 in Toronto my view on him will somewhat change.

There have been questions about Kessel's overall character from day 1, that's why he went from 1 to 5 in the draft. Still is clearly otherwise Boston would have done everything they could to sign him. I think Burke dropped the ball in a big way here.

N4L wrote:We'll see if he does that in Toronto, haha. 1st place team vs a last place team. If he hits 30 in Toronto my view on him will somewhat change.

There have been questions about Kessel's overall character from day 1, that's why he went from 1 to 5 in the draft. Still is clearly otherwise Boston would have done everything they could to sign him. I think Burke dropped the ball in a big way here.

We bet already on the Leafs coming in higher than 13th, right? I like that bet a lot right now.

We'll see, he still isnt playing until Novemeber.

But ya, that might get them from 12, or 13th to 10th or 11th... We'll see though. Still dont like their team.

asq2 wrote:

N4L wrote:

Kovalfie wrote:Is it just me or does two 1sts and a 2nd seem like more than Cheechoo, Michalek, and a 2nd?

I dunno... is Kessel that much better the Michalek himself? About 3 years age difference, Michalek is faster, stronger, and produces at the same level, more complete. I would say Kessel for Michalek straight up would have been 100% even.

Throw in Cheechoo and a 2nd... I say its about the same, buuuuut that's just me.

EDIT: Actually, no, Kessel's return was better... I still like what we got for Heatley though.

Of course he's more complete. Kessel's 21.

On the other hand, MM's never broken the 30 goal mark while Kessel was on pace for a 40+ goal season last year.

MIchalek had 40 assists when he was 22 too, Kessel didn't crack the 25A yet. It's like comparing Heatley to Spezza IMO.

asq2 wrote:

N4L wrote:

Kovalfie wrote:Is it just me or does two 1sts and a 2nd seem like more than Cheechoo, Michalek, and a 2nd?

I dunno... is Kessel that much better the Michalek himself? About 3 years age difference, Michalek is faster, stronger, and produces at the same level, more complete. I would say Kessel for Michalek straight up would have been 100% even.

Throw in Cheechoo and a 2nd... I say its about the same, buuuuut that's just me.

EDIT: Actually, no, Kessel's return was better... I still like what we got for Heatley though.

Of course he's more complete. Kessel's 21.

On the other hand, MM's never broken the 30 goal mark while Kessel was on pace for a 40+ goal season last year.

Michalek was getting his goals in the stingy West, and "on pace" is just that.

wprager wrote:

asq2 wrote:

N4L wrote:

Kovalfie wrote:Is it just me or does two 1sts and a 2nd seem like more than Cheechoo, Michalek, and a 2nd?

I dunno... is Kessel that much better the Michalek himself? About 3 years age difference, Michalek is faster, stronger, and produces at the same level, more complete. I would say Kessel for Michalek straight up would have been 100% even.

Throw in Cheechoo and a 2nd... I say its about the same, buuuuut that's just me.

EDIT: Actually, no, Kessel's return was better... I still like what we got for Heatley though.

Of course he's more complete. Kessel's 21.

On the other hand, MM's never broken the 30 goal mark while Kessel was on pace for a 40+ goal season last year.

Michalek was getting his goals in the stingy West, and "on pace" is just that.

The Sharks are consistently one of the higher scoring teams in the league, and while I do admit on pace and achievement are not the same thing, 36 goals in 70 games is different from 1 goal in 2 games.

Just like Jason Blake, Kessel has no chance of a repeat performance. This year, for sure, since he's not playing until, what, November? And until the Leafs can find or groom a top-line center to feed him like Savard did, it will remain a near impossibility.

wprager wrote:Just like Jason Blake, Kessel has no chance of a repeat performance. This year, for sure, since he's not playing until, what, November? And until the Leafs can find or groom a top-line center to feed him like Savard did, it will remain a near impossibility.

Jason Blake was almost 34 when they signed him. Phil Kessel is 21.

Do you honestly not see how anti-Leaf bias is emerging here?

Not really anti-Leaf. But he's going from a Stanley Cup contender to a team that is rebuilding (and who have not started rebuilding the forwards). Kessel is a goal scorer but is he a manufacturer? Is Grabovski really a 1st line center and, even if he is, is he as good a playmaker as Savard?

Blake, at 34 going on 35, certainly was not a young star on the rise, but he was not an over-the-hill vet either. It was the length of that contract that was the problem.

Look, I am not saying Kessel won't help the Leafs win games, or that he is a bad player. I'm just saying that I do not expect him to repeat (36 goals or being on pace for 40) with this lineup. And I also feel that they gave up too much (especially since it looks like they could have given up less using an offer sheet).

wprager wrote:Just like Jason Blake, Kessel has no chance of a repeat performance. This year, for sure, since he's not playing until, what, November? And until the Leafs can find or groom a top-line center to feed him like Savard did, it will remain a near impossibility.

Mr Prager.... not that I disagree with it... but really?

wprager wrote:Not really anti-Leaf. But he's going from a Stanley Cup contender to a team that is rebuilding (and who have not started rebuilding the forwards). Kessel is a goal scorer but is he a manufacturer? Is Grabovski really a 1st line center and, even if he is, is he as good a playmaker as Savard?

No, neither Grabovski or Kadri are as good as Savard. I'm not saying Kessel's numbers won't go down next season - although he's not a Heatley, he can create offence for himself - but to say that he has no chance of a repeat performance when he's several years away from even the beginning of his prime?

wprager wrote:Blake, at 34 going on 35, certainly was not a young star on the rise, but he was not an over-the-hill vet either. It was the length of that contract that was the problem.

Phil Kessel, at 21, is a young star on the rise.

wprager wrote:Look, I am not saying Kessel won't help the Leafs win games, or that he is a bad player. I'm just saying that I do not expect him to repeat (36 goals or being on pace for 40) with this lineup. And I also feel that they gave up too much (especially since it looks like they could have given up less using an offer sheet).

I don't anticipate he'll hit 35/40 goals next year, no. But as he develops, it's very likely that he'll match those numbers several times.

I don't disagree that they may have given up too much, although we'll have to wait to see how the picks pan out.

Although I'm not really sure why they didn't go the offer sheet route, I don't think this deal is as bad as some here seem to think. There are rumors that Kessel isn't much of a team guy but he's young with a 30+ goal season under his belt. As bad as the leafs could've been this year, somehow they never seem to get in the lottery pick range. So, if you look at what they got this year (I'm assuming they would've finished around the same place this year), this trade is two Kadris and a second for one Kessel.

I agree, he won't have anything close to a Marc Savard in Toronto but I also think his best years are still to come. It's a risky move but a typical Toronto move...when has Toronto ever rebuilt their team from scratch? Leafs nation just doesn't have the patience.

2 1sts is a little steep especially since they will be picking around 6-8th with a good chance of moving up a couple of spots. These picks could get some really influential players in the future. Toronto has very little prospects and should be concerned with building up a team through the draft. The fans may not have the patience but i doubt that would stop Toronto fans from coming to the game. Say what you want about Toronto fans(i know i do) but they always come out to support their team

Hockeyhero22000 wrote:2 1sts is a little steep especially since they will be picking around 6-8th with a good chance of moving up a couple of spots. These picks could get some really influential players in the future. Toronto has very little prospects and should be concerned with building up a team through the draft. The fans may not have the patience but i doubt that would stop Toronto fans from coming to the game. Say what you want about Toronto fans(i know i do) but they always come out to support their team

TO's farm system isn't all that bad. Anyway, I think even before Kessel they had made some moves to improve the club. I think they'll be at worst picking 9th/10th, barring major injuries of course.

IMO, Kessel is a 2nd line guy who probably wont be much more then that because of his general attitude towards the game. I think he's over rated as is and benifitted playing infront of a great defense, the leagues best goaltender, and had an amazing coach and line mates to help him out.

I dont think he's a star in the rise, I think he is a player that just got a whole wack of cash that and will end up being way over paid.

asq2 wrote:

Hockeyhero22000 wrote:2 1sts is a little steep especially since they will be picking around 6-8th with a good chance of moving up a couple of spots. These picks could get some really influential players in the future. Toronto has very little prospects and should be concerned with building up a team through the draft. The fans may not have the patience but i doubt that would stop Toronto fans from coming to the game. Say what you want about Toronto fans(i know i do) but they always come out to support their team

TO's farm system isn't all that bad. Anyway, I think even before Kessel they had made some moves to improve the club. I think they'll be at worst picking 9th/10th, barring major injuries of course.

They already start with one, Kessel.

asq2 wrote:

Hockeyhero22000 wrote:2 1sts is a little steep especially since they will be picking around 6-8th with a good chance of moving up a couple of spots. These picks could get some really influential players in the future. Toronto has very little prospects and should be concerned with building up a team through the draft. The fans may not have the patience but i doubt that would stop Toronto fans from coming to the game. Say what you want about Toronto fans(i know i do) but they always come out to support their team

TO's farm system isn't all that bad. Anyway, I think even before Kessel they had made some moves to improve the club. I think they'll be at worst picking 9th/10th, barring major injuries of course.

they aren't that bad but they aren't that good either they could have used to top 10 picks even if they pick in the top ten next two years would tremendously help that team