EJ Hradek and NHL Live Reporting Dany Heatley has requested a trade

Urkie wrote:

Mojo wrote:Buddy, you just listed three guys who have no heart and can't handle the pressure of playing in a big hockey market, three guys who care more about themselves than about the team. You act like it is a bad thing for these guys to be leaving the locker room. And besides, Schaeffer first asked for a trade when Muckler was still GM, at the trade deadline in the year they went to the finals. Maybe you're the one that hasn't been paying attention.

I think it's reasonable to question a GM that took the team from contender to bottom 5 over the span of about 2 years don't you think? That's what I have been paying attention to.

I personally blame Muckler's emptying of the prospect cupboard as the biggest item leading to the Sens' demise over the past two years. Ottawa did not have any real prospects by the time Murray took over. Not to mention Muckler let Chara go and kept Redden which was a huge setback. As for signing the big 3 to big contracts, what was Murray supposed to do? Let one of them walk? For the msot part I have agreed with the moves Murray has made. They may not all be winners be he is trying to make a team that has more pride and is not such a pushover. If he botches this Heatley deal, I will place some serious blame on him for how nect season turns out.

hemlock wrote:Agreed. I'd say that much like Sutter in Calgary, Murray is still living off the credit earned from the SCF run. He's made some questionable choices during his tenure as GM. Time will tell, but I hope to hell he doesn't botch this Heatley thing, as it will set the franchise back more than any of the moves he's made previously, or anything Muckler did (including the Havlat deal).

That and the fact that he supposedly built the team that beat us.

In a cap world I suspected that giving out those big contracts to Spezza and Heatley might catch up to us one day and it did only quicker then I originally thought. Those 2 contracts prevented Murray from making any adjustments and from improving the team because he has always been just trying to make room. Those 2 contracts pretty much dictated every single move he's made as the Sens GM. You've gotta know how to manage the cap now and I don't think he did a very good job of it at least so far.

Urkie wrote:

hemlock wrote:Agreed. I'd say that much like Sutter in Calgary, Murray is still living off the credit earned from the SCF run. He's made some questionable choices during his tenure as GM. Time will tell, but I hope to hell he doesn't botch this Heatley thing, as it will set the franchise back more than any of the moves he's made previously, or anything Muckler did (including the Havlat deal).

That and the fact that he supposedly built the team that beat us.

In a cap world I suspected that giving out those big contracts to Spezza and Heatley might catch up to us one day and it did only quicker then I originally thought. Those 2 contracts prevented Murray from making any adjustments and from improving the team because he has always been just trying to make room. Those 2 contracts pretty much dictated every single move he's made as the Sens GM. You've gotta know how to manage the cap now and I don't think he did a very good job of it at least so far.

I'm just curious what you propose he could have done with Spezza and Heatley after they just came off great playoff runs.

Mojo wrote:I'm just curious what you propose he could have done with Spezza and Heatley after they just came off great playoff runs.

Wait until closer to the end of the season to see how they would follow it up.

Mojo wrote:

Urkie wrote:

hemlock wrote:Agreed. I'd say that much like Sutter in Calgary, Murray is still living off the credit earned from the SCF run. He's made some questionable choices during his tenure as GM. Time will tell, but I hope to hell he doesn't botch this Heatley thing, as it will set the franchise back more than any of the moves he's made previously, or anything Muckler did (including the Havlat deal).

That and the fact that he supposedly built the team that beat us.

In a cap world I suspected that giving out those big contracts to Spezza and Heatley might catch up to us one day and it did only quicker then I originally thought. Those 2 contracts prevented Murray from making any adjustments and from improving the team because he has always been just trying to make room. Those 2 contracts pretty much dictated every single move he's made as the Sens GM. You've gotta know how to manage the cap now and I don't think he did a very good job of it at least so far.

I'm just curious what you propose he could have done with Spezza and Heatley after they just came off great playoff runs.

Spezza was RFA was he not? I don't know if he had to hand him nearly $50 million. Heatley was UFA and got what he was deserving of at the time. Urkie makes a good point though in that the large contracts he's signed these two to have dictated alot if not all moves since.

hemlock wrote:Spezza was RFA was he not? I don't know if he had to hand him nearly $50 million. Heatley was UFA and got what he was deserving of at the time. Urkie makes a good point though in that the large contracts he's signed these two to have dictated alot if not all moves since.

Spezza was an RFA I believe so it's not like Murray had to go ahead and sign him so early.

Heatley was a UFA so I could see why he wanted to get something done early but before you make a decision like that you have to know exactly where you are as a team. Especially since it will have serious cap implications down the road.

It's true though, if you go through every move he has made it's because of cap constraints and he in large part, did it to himself.

Urkie wrote:

Mojo wrote:I'm just curious what you propose he could have done with Spezza and Heatley after they just came off great playoff runs.

Wait until closer to the end of the season to see how they would follow it up.

Fair enough, but would the contracts have been that much different if he had? That year (2007-08) Spezza had a career year in points, goals, assists, and +-, while Heatley had lower numbers but also played less games due to injury. So if you had waited until the end of the year and had seen those stats, what would you have done wit Heatley and Spezza?

Mojo wrote:Fair enough, but would the contracts have been that much different if he had? That year (2007-08) Spezza had a career year in points, goals, assists, and +-, while Heatley had lower numbers but also played less games due to injury. So if you had waited until the end of the year and had seen those stats, what would you have done wit Heatley and Spezza?

Well, we had a downer finish to the season that year and were swept out in the first round. If it were my team then I would be hesitant to make any long term commitments at that point. I'm sure Murray would have been too but he couldn't change what he had done earlier. That off-season was the one where the culture should have begun to change but Murray couldn't do anything at that point due to cap restrictions.

Urkie wrote:

Mojo wrote:Fair enough, but would the contracts have been that much different if he had? That year (2007-08) Spezza had a career year in points, goals, assists, and +-, while Heatley had lower numbers but also played less games due to injury. So if you had waited until the end of the year and had seen those stats, what would you have done wit Heatley and Spezza?

Well, we had a downer finish to the season that year and were swept out in the first round. If it were my team then I would be hesitant to make any long term commitments at that point. I'm sure Murray would have been too but he couldn't change what he had done earlier. That off-season was the one where the culture should have begun to change but Murray couldn't do anything at that point due to cap restrictions.

The other problem about waiting until the end of the season is that you never know if players will become disgruntled or want more money. Signing them to big deals right after a great playoff run means they are in good spirits and loyal to the club. There was always the risk that when Heatley got close to free agency, he might have just wanted to see what else he could get and Ottawa would lose him for nothing.

Mojo wrote:The other problem about waiting until the end of the season is that you never know if players will become disgruntled or want more money. Signing them to big deals right after a great playoff run means they are in good spirits and loyal to the club. There was always the risk that when Heatley got close to free agency, he might have just wanted to see what else he could get and Ottawa would lose him for nothing.

This is all true but Murray still should have waited to see how the season progressed because nothing is a given in this league. If he waits and the team has a bad year then it becomes easier to decide where the team goes from there. But by signing Heatley, Spezza and even Fisher so early in the season, he basically assumed the team would be successful and that he wouldn't have to make hardly any changes over the summer.

It's all about accountability really. In order to get a contract like that you have to prove yourself. Getting to the finals and then handing out those contracts is basically like saying that was good enough. I believe it was....and this is jmo....the start of where the laziness started to come into play.

That's fair as well. Don't get me going on Fisher... I have never been a big fan of that contract. Murray had some tough decisions to make and he made them, that's what he's paid for. When it all comes down to it, I think most GMs would have made very similar moves to Murray if they were in the same position.

Flo The Action wrote:

wprager wrote:
Band practice? What do you play?

scandinavian influenced punk rock n roll with touches of 80's rock. lead guitar

You should post some clips.

SpezDispenser wrote:We could re-sign Mr. Clutch himself, Martin Havlat. I wouldn't mind seeing him back here in the least.

Really wants to win it looks like as well.

He certainly has matured and grown a couple since he left Ottawa. I'd say today, if Gill were to pin him down against the back of the goal, he'd probably get a rupture in a place where simply hearing the word "rupture" makes you cringe. No a love-tap like last time. Might as well get all of your money's worth if you're getting suspended.

Urkie wrote:I'm beginning to believe that part of the reason Heatley has asked for a trade is because he has lost faith in management. You can't really blame him for that either since we've seen the team only regress the last 2 years. I guess what I'm trying to say is that Murray may be the bigger problem here. We've had 3 players in 2 years ask for trades and the team hasn't improved in the slightest since he took over. If he doesn't get good value for Heatley and then the team bombs it next year he is as good as gone I would think.

It's rare for a GM taking over a SC Finalist team to be able to turn things around in 1-2 seasons. Muckler picked Redden over Chara, gave away Havlat for next-to-nothing, and left the cupboard bare -- or full of Russians heading back East.

Since Murray took over, he has made mistakes, for sure. Paddock and Hartsburg being the biggest ones. The panic move to trade Corvo and Eaves for rentals. Letting the Emery situation continue.

But he also made some good moves. Forget what *happened* to Emery, the contract he got him to sign was actually quite good considering what his comparables were getting. The issue was not installing a handler. The contracts for Heatley and Spezza were also good ones, if the cap continued going up and was sitting at $60M (like many were foolishly predicting -- or hoping). Also, two years of bad coaching hasn't helped Spezza's development. Again, that's still very much on Murray, but it was addressed in the previous paragraph. Taken out of context of what happened *after*, the contracts were good.

Moving to his drafting, when was the last time we were as excited about our up-and-coming players? Karlsson, Wiercioch, O'Brien, Regin, Caporusso, Z. Smith, Petersson; plus the ones already here (some drafted by Muckler, no doubt, so I won't mention them).

Trade-wise, as much as I hated losing Vermette, his time with the Sens had come to an unsatisfying conclusion. So much potential, with occasional skillwork that made you dream of things, sadly, not to come. We got a pretty decent return, though, and with Regin's work in the face off circle, maybe we will not lose out on that (his face-off percentage, I feel, was the only contribution that Vermette brought that could not be easily replaced by a player at half his salary). Nycholat for Shannon was a steal for the Sens. The Meszaros trade is a little early for final analysis, given that Meszaros has potential, but so far that deal definitely favors the Sens. Campoli for the first-rounder is also too early. If we somehow sign Comrie for under $2M and his hip fully heals, then that surely helps to tip the scales. If Campoli continues contributing like he did late in the season, then that's a great trade.

Does the good outweigh the bad? Yes, although the bad certailny casts a large shadow on the good. In the balance, though, I am willing to give Murray another chance to see which way the team will head, now that it finally has a coach with a system, who pays more than lip-service to accountability, strong goal-tending, a core of veterans who still want to be here, and lots of (hopefully) good (cheap) talent coming up.

Urkie wrote:

Mojo wrote:Buddy, you just listed three guys who have no heart and can't handle the pressure of playing in a big hockey market, three guys who care more about themselves than about the team. You act like it is a bad thing for these guys to be leaving the locker room. And besides, Schaeffer first asked for a trade when Muckler was still GM, at the trade deadline in the year they went to the finals. Maybe you're the one that hasn't been paying attention.

I think it's reasonable to question a GM that took the team from contender to bottom 5 over the span of about 2 years don't you think? That's what I have been paying attention to.

You guys are both right. That much is clear -- at least to me.

Some players asked for trades (I believe you can also add Stillman and Commodore to the list -- they didn't have to ask to be traded given their status, but the end result was the same -- they did not want to stay). But at the end of the day more players are committed to staying, and those are the ones who will make your team better.

Mojo wrote:

Urkie wrote:

hemlock wrote:Agreed. I'd say that much like Sutter in Calgary, Murray is still living off the credit earned from the SCF run. He's made some questionable choices during his tenure as GM. Time will tell, but I hope to hell he doesn't botch this Heatley thing, as it will set the franchise back more than any of the moves he's made previously, or anything Muckler did (including the Havlat deal).

That and the fact that he supposedly built the team that beat us.

In a cap world I suspected that giving out those big contracts to Spezza and Heatley might catch up to us one day and it did only quicker then I originally thought. Those 2 contracts prevented Murray from making any adjustments and from improving the team because he has always been just trying to make room. Those 2 contracts pretty much dictated every single move he's made as the Sens GM. You've gotta know how to manage the cap now and I don't think he did a very good job of it at least so far.

I'm just curious what you propose he could have done with Spezza and Heatley after they just came off great playoff runs.

Exactly. There was no-one in Bingo ready to step in an score 20 goals playing 3rd line minutes. The length of the contract and the NMC -- those we could have done without.

Urkie wrote:

Mojo wrote:The other problem about waiting until the end of the season is that you never know if players will become disgruntled or want more money. Signing them to big deals right after a great playoff run means they are in good spirits and loyal to the club. There was always the risk that when Heatley got close to free agency, he might have just wanted to see what else he could get and Ottawa would lose him for nothing.

This is all true but Murray still should have waited to see how the season progressed because nothing is a given in this league. If he waits and the team has a bad year then it becomes easier to decide where the team goes from there. But by signing Heatley, Spezza and even Fisher so early in the season, he basically assumed the team would be successful and that he wouldn't have to make hardly any changes over the summer.

It's all about accountability really. In order to get a contract like that you have to prove yourself. Getting to the finals and then handing out those contracts is basically like saying that was good enough. I believe it was....and this is jmo....the start of where the laziness started to come into play.

And then, two months into the season, when the Sens were still leading the league in everything other than goalie stats, the pressure would have been even higher for him to extend Speatley. At that point -- remember, we are not supposed to know what is to come in December through April -- you and everyone here would have been screaming at Murray to sign them now, before they are demanding $8M+ each.

You can't analyse a deal out of its original context. If you can find some posts where you said -- back at that time -- that Murray should have waited to see how the season progressed, that a fast start can be just that, that you are still not convinced that Heatley and Spezza deserve anything long-term -- if you can show me that, then I'll concede the point to you. Until then, that ball is out of bounds.

Oh, yeah, agreed on the Fisher contract. And if you go back you'll see my posts on the subject. I was *not* at all impressed. At the very least, I said it should be discounted by 15% to account for injuries. Come to think of it, I said the exact same thing about Spezza's contract. $7M seems fair, but since he's going to miss 10-12 games, discount it by 15%, which brings it closer to $6M.