Hartsburg Fired!

rooneypoo wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:1, he won the AHL MVP in the lockout year after playing 3 years in the NHL. Thats basically like a peewee player going back to atom and tearing it up. That award is meaningless because his team somehow found a way to lose, per normal.

Spezza has been through 4 coaches now, this is his 5th in 6 1/2 years in the NHL. Ever since he signed that contract this team has had 4 coaches, 4! Thats insane. Same can be said for Heatley, but for all the people that defend Spezza, he has never lead this team in scoring, never hit 100 points, never been a leader, and so on.

Jaques Lamaire came on the radio today and said there is cancer in that locker room, and there are a lot of others that are saying it as well. You think Foligno is the guy bringing this team down? Prob not.

Its time for people to realize Spezza is the guy no one wants to play with and no one wants in the locker room.

Its not the coaches.

I'll believe that when I hear it from one of the players. Especially Alfie. And, no, second-hand information doesn't count.

Of course not, why would something said by someone who has been in the league for almost 30 years count.

Neely4Life wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:1, he won the AHL MVP in the lockout year after playing 3 years in the NHL. Thats basically like a peewee player going back to atom and tearing it up. That award is meaningless because his team somehow found a way to lose, per normal.

Spezza has been through 4 coaches now, this is his 5th in 6 1/2 years in the NHL. Ever since he signed that contract this team has had 4 coaches, 4! Thats insane. Same can be said for Heatley, but for all the people that defend Spezza, he has never lead this team in scoring, never hit 100 points, never been a leader, and so on.

Jaques Lamaire came on the radio today and said there is cancer in that locker room, and there are a lot of others that are saying it as well. You think Foligno is the guy bringing this team down? Prob not.

Its time for people to realize Spezza is the guy no one wants to play with and no one wants in the locker room.

Its not the coaches.

I'll believe that when I hear it from one of the players. Especially Alfie. And, no, second-hand information doesn't count.

Of course not, why would something said by someone who has been in the league for almost 30 years count.

I'm reading your last post again, and nowhere do you say anything about Lemaire pointing out Spezza as the cancer in the room. Instead, you said that Lemaire said that there's a cancer in the room, and then you named Spezza yourself. From my perspective, there's a big difference between what Lemaire may or may not have said and what you have extrapolated. We all know where you stand on Spezza, after all.

If Lemaire indeed explicitly called Spezza the cancer, however, then we can talk.

Interesting look at what Murray has done as GM of the Sens. A little dated but interesting none the less...

http://the6thsens.blogspot.com/2008/10/bryan-murrays-tenure-as-gm.html

Whatever is going on, they need to find a coach that can get through to the players. Do I blame the players? Hell yeah. How can a group so talented not get motivated to play? But what can Murray do? It's "easier" to find a new coach than replace your entire roster. It's sad, but it is what it is. Maybe Murray is not reading the players properly, or not getting the right feedback to make the right choice... I have no idea how the system works in there, but something is not registering.

rooneypoo wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:1, he won the AHL MVP in the lockout year after playing 3 years in the NHL. Thats basically like a peewee player going back to atom and tearing it up. That award is meaningless because his team somehow found a way to lose, per normal.

Spezza has been through 4 coaches now, this is his 5th in 6 1/2 years in the NHL. Ever since he signed that contract this team has had 4 coaches, 4! Thats insane. Same can be said for Heatley, but for all the people that defend Spezza, he has never lead this team in scoring, never hit 100 points, never been a leader, and so on.

Jaques Lamaire came on the radio today and said there is cancer in that locker room, and there are a lot of others that are saying it as well. You think Foligno is the guy bringing this team down? Prob not.

Its time for people to realize Spezza is the guy no one wants to play with and no one wants in the locker room.

Its not the coaches.

I'll believe that when I hear it from one of the players. Especially Alfie. And, no, second-hand information doesn't count.

Of course not, why would something said by someone who has been in the league for almost 30 years count.

I'm reading your last post again, and nowhere do you say anything about Lemaire pointing out Spezza as the cancer in the room. Instead, you said that Lemaire said that there's a cancer in the room, and then you named Spezza yourself. From my perspective, there's a big difference between what Lemaire may or may not have said and what you have extrapolated. We all know where you stand on Spezza, after all.

If Lemaire indeed explicitly called Spezza the cancer, however, then we can talk.

He said their best players are the problem, and there is a cancer there. He went on to say he loved Alfi, Fisher, and Neil and can play on his team any day. Leaves to guys, I'll buy either one. Everything I have been told on top of that by people I know that are in the game have said the same things about Spezza.

Anyways, you do the math, its not the coaches who play the game, its not the GM, its the players.

rooneypoo wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:1, he won the AHL MVP in the lockout year after playing 3 years in the NHL. Thats basically like a peewee player going back to atom and tearing it up. That award is meaningless because his team somehow found a way to lose, per normal.

Spezza has been through 4 coaches now, this is his 5th in 6 1/2 years in the NHL. Ever since he signed that contract this team has had 4 coaches, 4! Thats insane. Same can be said for Heatley, but for all the people that defend Spezza, he has never lead this team in scoring, never hit 100 points, never been a leader, and so on.

Jaques Lamaire came on the radio today and said there is cancer in that locker room, and there are a lot of others that are saying it as well. You think Foligno is the guy bringing this team down? Prob not.

Its time for people to realize Spezza is the guy no one wants to play with and no one wants in the locker room.

Its not the coaches.

I'll believe that when I hear it from one of the players. Especially Alfie. And, no, second-hand information doesn't count.

Of course not, why would something said by someone who has been in the league for almost 30 years count.

I'm reading your last post again, and nowhere do you say anything about Lemaire pointing out Spezza as the cancer in the room. Instead, you said that Lemaire said that there's a cancer in the room, and then you named Spezza yourself. From my perspective, there's a big difference between what Lemaire may or may not have said and what you have extrapolated. We all know where you stand on Spezza, after all.

If Lemaire indeed explicitly called Spezza the cancer, however, then we can talk.

Neely - I'm pretty sure that was Jacques DEMERS on the radio. I heard it too, I didn't hear him say there was a cancer in the locker room, he was just at a total loss to understand how things could be so bad with such talent in the locker room. He talked about Spezza, Fisher and Neil and certainly didn't suggest it was one person that caused this. He did suggest that perhaps some millionaires had lost their desire to compete day in and day out.

He was blaming the entire team, not just one guy and suggested that to go through these coaches so fast suggests it's a roster issue, not a coaching issue.

I can see where he's coming from, and the locker room seems to still need some cleaning up. Respect, desire, heart, chemistry, jam... we have none of that right now.

Sorry, Demers, and he 100% said "there is a cancer in the locker room". If I can find the interview I will post it here. He 100% said there is a cancer in the Sens locker room. Right after he praised Neil and Fisher.

Neely4Life wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:1, he won the AHL MVP in the lockout year after playing 3 years in the NHL. Thats basically like a peewee player going back to atom and tearing it up. That award is meaningless because his team somehow found a way to lose, per normal.

Spezza has been through 4 coaches now, this is his 5th in 6 1/2 years in the NHL. Ever since he signed that contract this team has had 4 coaches, 4! Thats insane. Same can be said for Heatley, but for all the people that defend Spezza, he has never lead this team in scoring, never hit 100 points, never been a leader, and so on.

Jaques Lamaire came on the radio today and said there is cancer in that locker room, and there are a lot of others that are saying it as well. You think Foligno is the guy bringing this team down? Prob not.

Its time for people to realize Spezza is the guy no one wants to play with and no one wants in the locker room.

Its not the coaches.

I'll believe that when I hear it from one of the players. Especially Alfie. And, no, second-hand information doesn't count.

Of course not, why would something said by someone who has been in the league for almost 30 years count.

I'm reading your last post again, and nowhere do you say anything about Lemaire pointing out Spezza as the cancer in the room. Instead, you said that Lemaire said that there's a cancer in the room, and then you named Spezza yourself. From my perspective, there's a big difference between what Lemaire may or may not have said and what you have extrapolated. We all know where you stand on Spezza, after all.

If Lemaire indeed explicitly called Spezza the cancer, however, then we can talk.

He said their best players are the problem, and there is a cancer there. He went on to say he loved Alfi, Fisher, and Neil and can play on his team any day. Leaves to guys, I'll buy either one. Everything I have been told on top of that by people I know that are in the game have said the same things about Spezza.

Anyways, you do the math, its not the coaches who play the game, its not the GM, its the players.

I agree, it's definitely the players, and Lemaire's exclusion of Heatley and Spezza from his list of "desire-ables" speaks volumes. While I question what he knows of our locker room, I certainly don't question his hockey sense.

I don't know where we go from here. It'd be nice to be a fly on the wall and hear Alfie's candid assessment of his locker room and what might be wrong with it. I hope BM at least gets to hear it. Then we can talk about moving forward.

Neely4Life wrote:Sorry, Demers, and he 100% said "there is a cancer in the locker room". If I can find the interview I will post it here. He 100% said there is a cancer in the Sens locker room. Right after he praised Neil and Fisher.

Hmm. I don't hold Demers in nearly as high regard as Lemaire. This changes things.

Neely4Life wrote:Sorry, Demers, and he 100% said "there is a cancer in the locker room". If I can find the interview I will post it here. He 100% said there is a cancer in the Sens locker room. Right after he praised Neil and Fisher.

I must have missed it. I was a good interview to hear though and if you find a link, post it for the others to hear/read.

It was a good interview, and it was basically what everyone else has hinted towards.

There have been whispers forever about a few guys on this team, and now its being said in public, and they are going through coaches like they are some sort of fluffer for the players. No one ever questions the heart and desire of the less tallented players on this team. Why do people question the top 2 highest paid players on this team?

rooneypoo wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:1, he won the AHL MVP in the lockout year after playing 3 years in the NHL. Thats basically like a peewee player going back to atom and tearing it up. That award is meaningless because his team somehow found a way to lose, per normal.

Spezza has been through 4 coaches now, this is his 5th in 6 1/2 years in the NHL. Ever since he signed that contract this team has had 4 coaches, 4! Thats insane. Same can be said for Heatley, but for all the people that defend Spezza, he has never lead this team in scoring, never hit 100 points, never been a leader, and so on.

Jaques Lamaire came on the radio today and said there is cancer in that locker room, and there are a lot of others that are saying it as well. You think Foligno is the guy bringing this team down? Prob not.

Its time for people to realize Spezza is the guy no one wants to play with and no one wants in the locker room.

Its not the coaches.

I'll believe that when I hear it from one of the players. Especially Alfie. And, no, second-hand information doesn't count.

Of course not, why would something said by someone who has been in the league for almost 30 years count.

I'm reading your last post again, and nowhere do you say anything about Lemaire pointing out Spezza as the cancer in the room. Instead, you said that Lemaire said that there's a cancer in the room, and then you named Spezza yourself. From my perspective, there's a big difference between what Lemaire may or may not have said and what you have extrapolated. We all know where you stand on Spezza, after all.

If Lemaire indeed explicitly called Spezza the cancer, however, then we can talk.

He said their best players are the problem, and there is a cancer there. He went on to say he loved Alfi, Fisher, and Neil and can play on his team any day. Leaves to guys, I'll buy either one. Everything I have been told on top of that by people I know that are in the game have said the same things about Spezza.

Anyways, you do the math, its not the coaches who play the game, its not the GM, its the players.

I agree, it's definitely the players, and Lemaire's exclusion of Heatley and Spezza from his list of "desire-ables" speaks volumes. While I question what he knows of our locker room, I certainly don't question his hockey sense.

I don't know where we go from here. It'd be nice to be a fly on the wall and hear Alfie's candid assessment of his locker room and what might be wrong with it. I hope BM at least gets to hear it. Then we can talk about moving forward.

I dont think Alfi would ever say n e thign negative to anyone. Personally, I think he is a mute in there and his lead by example, which is fine by me.

You can either believe me or not about what has been said about Spezza by players in the NHL, but thats why I have the opinion I do of Spezza on top of what I have seen around the city.

I listened to the Jacques Demers interview on Team 1200 today, and he said three very significant things.

One: you have to bench veterans/stars when they don't perform. "I sat Vincent Damphousse and Guy Carbonneau, and Guy didn't speak to me for weeks," he said. "But you have to do it."

Two: Jason Spezza has talent but doesn't use it. "He has everything to be a great player in the league. But is he lazy? Sometimes he is."

Three: the Sens are rotten at the core. "There is a cancer in the locker room".

Demers is not only a Cup winner, he's coached some of the best players ever to play the game including Patrick Roy and Steve Yzerman.

So Demers is saying, basically, that the Big 3 will have to (a) sit (b) be read the riot act and (c) at least one of them needs to be traded.

Thank you for summing that up.

But, again we come to the real problem to the solution: If the problem is Spezza, do you want to move him knowing you can't get a significant return? You at least want a first round pick, period. Second, if it is Heatley, how do you trade someone who has control over their future?

DashRiprock wrote:But, again we come to the real problem to the solution: If the problem is Spezza, do you want to move him knowing you can't get a significant return? You at least want a first round pick, period. Second, if it is Heatley, how do you trade someone who has control over their future?

You get what you can, its not about what THE SENS might think is fair return. Its about moving forward, building the team properly and letting young guys develope with character guys in the dressing room.

You don't want to get fleeced just for the sake of getting ride of someone. If they just want to get rid of him they can waive him. You're so hard on the guy and have reduced his value to nothing, yet you propose trades involving guys like Little, including first round picks. If fans know about alleged problems with players, don't think that people within the NHL don't, if anything they probably know more.

I still say you only trade him if you get a sweet deal. He's still a great player, despite what you think.

DashRiprock wrote:You don't want to get fleeced just for the sake of getting ride of someone. If they just want to get rid of him they can waive him. You're so hard on the guy and have reduced his value to nothing, yet you propose trades involving guys like Little, including first round picks. If fans know about alleged problems with players, don't think that people within the NHL don't, if anything they probably know more.

I still say you only trade him if you get a sweet deal. He's still a great player, despite what you think.

Great? He is far from great. If he is great so was Pierre Turgeon.

It all depends on what a teams current situation is.

Here's Scott Burnside's highly critical take on Hartsburg's firing from ESPN.com:

Monday, February 2, 2009
Be careful with this team, Eugene

By Scott Burnside
ESPN.com

Less than a week after Eugene Melnyk made an ill-advised suggestion to fans -- saying if they thought the Ottawa Senators needed to be rebuilt, they should bomb themselves -- the mercurial owner approved the firing of coach Craig Hartsburg, signaling the official end of the Senators' long run as Cup contenders and playoff regulars.

Speaking of bombs, were you a bit surprised to find that one went off so close to you, Eugene?

What was that you were saying about the team needing just 26 or 27 wins down the stretch to make the playoffs, Eugene?

Funny how you never hear Mike Ilitch suggesting to Red Wings fans that they should detonate themselves when things go bad in Detroit or San Jose president and CEO Greg Jamison suggesting Sharks fans can drown themselves in the Pacific when the Sharks don't meet expectations.

Somewhere there's a lesson, don't you think, Eugene?

Reminds us of the title of an old Pink Floyd song, "Careful With That Axe, Eugene." A word to the wise perhaps? Careful with that team, Eugene. Or is it too late?

If the Senators' march to the 2007 Stanley Cup finals represented a high watermark for a team that for the better part of a decade was a model of drafting and development and regular-season success, then the ensuing 20 months are a sobering reminder of how chaos, just like success, runs downhill.

No mistake, this is a team in transition, if not total chaos.

When a team goes through four coaches in about a year -- John Paddock, Bryan Murray, Hartsburg and new coach Cory Clouston -- it's hard not to draw the conclusion that this is a ship adrift.

Murray, who coached that Senators team to the 2007 finals before assuming the GM title that offseason, can certainly be held accountable, and he said as much Monday morning when he introduced his former AHL coach as the man to lead the Senators out of the wilderness.

"It definitely is on my shoulders," Murray said.

Murray, who helped build the Anaheim Ducks into a Stanley Cup champion as GM before taking the head-coaching job in Ottawa ostensibly to return home after the lockout, is a smart hockey man. That's what makes this team's dramatic decline so puzzling. Even Murray seemed perplexed Monday as to what happened to the once-dominant Senators.

But as much as Murray's personnel and coaching decisions are subject for debate and criticism, Melnyk's fingerprints are all over the Sens' decline.

In hindsight, it seems to have been a rush to judgment to fire John Muckler weeks after the 2007 playoffs ended. While Murray had a strong record as a GM, the hiring of Paddock, long removed from being an NHL coach, to replace Muckler was a disaster. Paddock was fired with 18 games left in the season and Murray took over to guide the Sens to a first-round sweep at the hands of the Pittsburgh Penguins.

Then, this past summer, when top young coach Peter DeBoer was available, sources tell ESPN.com it was Melnyk's abrasive style that cooled DeBoer on the Senators' job. In fact, it was immediately after DeBoer's visit to Melnyk's home in the Barbados that DeBoer was hired by Florida Panthers GM (and former Ottawa coach) Jacques Martin. It is no coincidence DeBoer has the Panthers in a playoff spot and the Senators are now looking like a draft lottery team.

Other sources told ESPN.com Murray has privately lamented his decision to hire Hartsburg in the offseason and wishes he had hired a coach more closely tied to NHL coaching, like Bob Hartley.

Now, with this season a wash, Murray hopes he has finally got his DeBoer in Clouston.

"This is a good coach and I say that wholeheartedly," Murray said of the 39-year-old Clouston, a former University of Alberta player and successful Major Junior A coach.

A cynic will suggest that Murray simply promoted Clouston to save costs. Yet Murray said Monday he had full control over replacing Hartsburg, including hiring a veteran coach, but believes Clouston is the right man for the job. That Murray didn't get the right man in the offseason is an indictment of both ownership and the inability of management to do what was best for the team.

What now?

Murray had better hope he is right and Clouston is the kind of coach who can discern the wheat from the chaff in the Senators' dressing room. The March 4 trade deadline is a month away and, over that time period, Clouston and Murray will try to determine who deserves to be part of this team's future.

"We have to watch the players over the next period of time and determine who stays and who doesn't stay," Murray said. "There will be judgments made before the trading deadline."

Murray met with his team Monday morning and told them he believes there are good people in that dressing room.

For the sake of Ottawa fans, here's hoping ownership finally lets the hockey people make the hockey decisions and finds out whether Murray is right.

Scott Burnside covers the NHL for ESPN.com.