Dion to become PM next Monday...

smash88 wrote:

strachattack wrote:

smash88 wrote:

strachattack wrote:

smash88 wrote:

strachattack wrote:

smash88 wrote:

strachattack wrote:

smash88 wrote:

MurderOnIce wrote:I don't give a crap about partisanship. No country can be run by a coalition. It is plain and simple. Having 3 cooks in the kitchen is a recipe for disaster. Not to mention the opinion of the international community. Plus Dion as our leader? Come on the guy can't run his own party. This is a way bad idea from a bunch of losers who lost an election. If they bring this before the GG, she better call an election not this coalition crap. Then the fence sitters and the morons who vote for candidates who have no hope in winning can pony up an opinion on who should govern. Man I am pissed about this Dung. Diddle wankers. Diddle.

Ok so she calls an election... Same results... What happens?

I just want things to get done...

Let's disect the issue at hand if it lead to an election. The Tories want to wait until January to release a stimulus package. The opposition wants one now. This is all that it comes down to. It's insane. Is this worth an election? If it's not, it's hardly worth a risky change of power IMHO.

I just don't understand how it's better for the governing party to have 36% or whatever of the popular vote than to have 65% or whatever it is...

If the NDP and Liberals were to form one party and we had another election would that be satisfactory to all of you? That would be perfectly fine with me, and is exactly what i've been calling for for a long time...

None of this coalition crap, just make a formal agreement, become one party and let's do it again...

The problem as I see it is that the NDP and Liberals are very different depending on the leader. In fact, if Iggy wins the leadership I expect to see the Liberals have more in common with the Harper Tories than I would with the NDP. They are not one in the same and do not represent the same groups of people. Even if you take out the equation the Bloc presents I can't see a Liberal and NDP coalition lasting more than a few months. They are at odds on quite a few issues.

Even majority governments don't enjoy the majority of the popular vote. I think Mulroney achieved it once and it fell apart in the most dramatic way. It's very difficult to hold together a large majority and keep everyone happy and on board. Keeping 2-3 parties in a coalition is next to impossible.

Yeah but what has to be done for the good of the people will get done... The right did it, they were massively splitting votes... Same is now happening on the left... The NDP and the Liberals are a lot closer than the the PC and Reform was... Just in my riding alone.. John Baird won by 3000 votes... he had 24000... The liberals had 21000 and NDP had 15000...

The PC and Reform were once in the same party lead by Mulroney and before him Clark. They did have a lot in common and were able to compromise on a platform. The big key issues that allowed them coexist were the same; low taxes, small gov't, private v.s public etc. They could splinter again under weak leadership or a sensational issue but so far so good.

The Liberals and NDP have never belonged to the same party. There are massive key issues they don't have in common. NAFTA, NATO, war in Afghanistan, etc... these two parties are very different.

These are all things that can be worked out though.... They are basically in agreeance with NATO... I don't see where the big disagreement is there.. Afghanistan is a totally different issue, but Layton has backed down from that, he took a lot of flask over his stance on that even within his own party... I'm not familiar with how they are different with NAFTA, but the stance on NAFTA changes every couple of years... So I don't hold that too high.. Thing is these are all issues that can be ironed out... These are mostly all conservatives pets anyway, won't be hard for the Liberals and NDP to come together on these... Health care and welfare are where they would have the most problems in my opinion but nothing that can't be worked out...

Nato - The NDP want out of altogether and the Liberals want it strengthened or remain status quo.

Afghanistan - what happens when Obama asks Canada to lengthen their commitment? The Libs got us in there and the NDP wanted no part of it. (militarily speaking)

NAFTA - the Libs are ok with the status quo and the NDP want it renegotiated or scrapped altogether. One would lead to the other I imagine.

The NDP have the unions in their back pocket and the Libs don't. The Libs are more friendly to Bay St. Not to mention these are two very proud brands that will never come together under one umbrella. The Liberals talk from the left but govern to the right. The NDP are just too far left of the Liberals for them to come together.

Yeah I don't think the NDP i as extremists as they once were, granted it is a lot of work they would have to do in order to reach middle ground, but honestly I really don't think it would be out of this reach... Obviously what has happened over the weekend is the first sign of that.. Now this is because they have a common enemy, I don't know what will happen once Harper is no longer the leader of the conservatives..

Thing is, this is probably something that will drag on for a while.. I'm not saying it would be overnight, but if we go through another election and the left vote is split again to the extent it was, I would not be surprised to see them strongly considering the idea... The idea has been floated around numerous times, it's just now starting to pick up steam..

Dion is also gone in May, so that could change everything once again.. It remains to be seen...

Should be an interesting year though...

Well, I think the agreement the coalition has to govern is fairly limited in scope. Obviously, they've all compromised to an extreme degree and omitted many of their planks.

I envisioned Iggy taking over for the Liberals and the battle for the next election would be fought for the centre-centre right with Harper. The left would be left for the NDP. As much as the NDP tried to appear more moderate there are still large groups of anti-globalization activists and other fringe activists that make up the grass roots of that party. They're not the type to give up their causes for the sake of getting into power. They can only water down their policy book so much. My best guess is they will look at Iggy as a crazed right winger and keeper of the establishment.

But you're right. It should be more interesting than what I originally thought it would be. Good chatting with ya.

Now I will detach myself from society, fall happily back into my bubble of slumber and watch hockey. The great escape... aaaahhh...

Tukker wrote:there should be a "none of the above" option on ballots.

This is what it all comes down to Imo...All of our potential leaders are Dung.
And I'm pretty sure Dion lost more seats in his attempt at becoming PM than any Liberal leader in history. So............Why....is it...exactly...that he is the chosen one? I voted Liberal because I thought his caucus would be far superior to that of Harper, but never did I think Dion was the better leader.
This has disaster written all over it.

And, I don't know about you guys, but the last thing I would want to do, at this point in world history, is call attention to myself (i.e. Canada)
We needed to stay strong, relatively neutral, and stable. This s not stable...

My only word of advice for people, start buying some USD!!!

shabbs wrote:

mattshock wrote:I just don't want **unnamed party leader** (I wouldn't want to offend) to take over the reigns. Some of the suggestions he/she was making during the election campaign were ludicrous in how economically RETARDED (read: out of Bush's playbook) they were... Anyone who paid attention in a highschool home economics course knows who I'm talking about...

I believe the "coalition" said if they did take over, they'd put together a "crack team" of financial advisers to put together the Stimulus Package to address the economic crisis.

Those people are ex-Liberal Prime Minister Paul Martin, former Liberal cabinet minister
John Manley, ex-Saskatchewan NDP Premier Roy Romanow and ex-New
Brunswick Liberal Premier Frank McKenna -- now deputy chair of the TD
Bank.

you misread that. they said "on crack" team, not "crack" team.....

Cronenbergfan wrote:Dion is as good as gone... The Liberals will still go ahead with their leadership convention in the Spring as planned.

As for voting Harper out, it was bound to happen with him getting yet another a minority. I have to agree with DW's statement above in that most people who split the vote by voting NDP or Green or Independent brought this minority government upon themselves. Had more people voted either PC or Grit, this would NOT have been such a big gap. However, what's done is done, and now, it should be interesting to see how things pan out; and for the record, I have NO idea what this coalition will do or what their specific plans are to address the economy, but Clutch, I think this doom & gloom thing is unwarrented. Harper and Flaherty's current position of standing pat and hoping for the best is certainly going to help NO ONE... for me, if this coalition does anything other than bring 3 to 4 parties to ONE table to work together, I think it's a good thing.

This is the last time im going to comment in this thread but need to clarify 1 thing:
Liberals got 27 % of the vote, Conservatives got 36%. Take a look at the number of seats each one of these parties has and then calculate whether or not theres a 10% difference in seats. Once that is done, draw your own conclusions about how you feel about our electoral system.

Whether you like it or not, the coalition government is the only type of proportional government(in terms of votes not intentions ) that is allowed as per the Canadian constitution.

blazer_2458 wrote:This is the last time im going to comment in this thread but need to clarify 1 thing:
Liberals got 27 % of the vote, Conservatives got 36%. Take a look at the number of seats each one of these parties has and then calculate whether or not theres a 10% difference in seats. Once that is done, draw your own conclusions about how you feel about our electoral system.

Yeah, that's a whole separate discussion as far as electoral reform, riding boundaries, seats, the whole first past the post vs proportional representation etc... but that's not for this board.

Politics and religion... always the hot items.

Neely4Life wrote:My only word of advice for people, start buying some USD!!!

Good Idea Neely. I think I'm on board with status quo and even moving Spezza with the economic disaster that is looming. Get as far under the Cap as you can right NOW. It may not affect the Cap too much in the upcoming season but it looks bad after that.

I'm kind of hoping that the GG does proroge the Govt today and that everyone takes some time to think about this over the break and come back in January with a "new and improved" budget that does have the confidence of the house and support of all the parties.

I really don't think we want to go down the road of a coalition. Harper needs to realize he has a minority and will have to work with all parties to get things done.

Hopefully cooler heads will prevail if they do have a break.

shabbs wrote:I'm kind of hoping that the GG does proroge the Govt today and that everyone takes some time to think about this over the break and come back in January with a "new and improved" budget that does have the confidence of the house and support of all the parties.

I really don't think we want to go down the road of a coalition. Harper needs to realize he has a minority and will have to work with all parties to get things done.

Hopefully cooler heads will prevail if they do have a break.

I looks like Harper got his break. But it won't change much. He's going to have to bend over so far backwards to table a budget that keeps the proposed coalition happy and prevents them from defeating his budget.

Let's be honest for a minute. Harper is an idiot. While he was doing all his lobbying he clearly had the common sense not to insult or provoke any of his political opposition...errrrr wait, scratch that. Short of having most of their demands met why would any of the proposed coalition members support Harper now, even if they kind of wanted to.

He got his suspension of parliament, I doubt it changes much come January.

shabbs wrote:I'm kind of hoping that the GG does proroge the Govt today and that everyone takes some time to think about this over the break and come back in January with a "new and improved" budget that does have the confidence of the house and support of all the parties.

I really don't think we want to go down the road of a coalition. Harper needs to realize he has a minority and will have to work with all parties to get things done.

Hopefully cooler heads will prevail if they do have a break.

Harper gets prorogation. No vote on Monday.
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politics/2008/12/02/7606136-cp.html

So where does that leave us? On Jan 26 when the Conservatives introduce the Budget it's voted down and another election is upon us or does it mean that the Coalition just has to wait until Jan 26?

Cap'n Clutch wrote:So where does that leave us? On Jan 26 when the Conservatives introduce the Budget it's voted down and another election is upon us or does it mean that the Coalition just has to wait until Jan 26?

Seven weeks' worth of polls to gauge the public reaction. The only way this coalition could work is in a quick-strike don't-stop-to-think approach. Already 2 unnamed Liberal MPs have said that it's time to think this through carefully.

Personally, I think we need to take the Bloc seats out of the equation when considering what constitutes a majority. The Bloc have no intention of governing the country; they want to leave. Excluding the 49 Bloc seats, the Conservatives received 55% of the rest, representing a majority of federalists.

Like the talk of the Mats Sundin rumours, I just... don't... CARE anymore. If Quebec wants to leave, leave. If not, not.

Off topic a bit, but w/e, we're in random thoughts.

Cap'n Clutch wrote:So where does that leave us? On Jan 26 when the Conservatives introduce the Budget it's voted down and another election is upon us or does it mean that the Coalition just has to wait until Jan 26?

It's a pretty stunning delay on Harper's part. Essentially all the politicians get a 7 week holiday!!! Wow, they sure do deserve it. Wait what have they done that is constructive since parliament has resumed? Oh ya, NOTHING!!! Go on boys you deserve all that time off. It's a shame cause before this latest development, Harper was the only guy who didn't look like a complete douche in this whole scenario (still a douche, but not a complete one). Now he is just proving that he is as weak of a leader as the rest of them.

wprager wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:So where does that leave us? On Jan 26 when the Conservatives introduce the Budget it's voted down and another election is upon us or does it mean that the Coalition just has to wait until Jan 26?

Seven weeks' worth of polls to gauge the public reaction. The only way this coalition could work is in a quick-strike don't-stop-to-think approach. Already 2 unnamed Liberal MPs have said that it's time to think this through carefully.

Personally, I think we need to take the Bloc seats out of the equation when considering what constitutes a majority. The Bloc have no intention of governing the country; they want to leave. Excluding the 49 Bloc seats, the Conservatives received 55% of the rest, representing a majority of federalists.

In truth, the Bloc aren't even separatists anymore. It was under that guise that got them all of their power, but now that the people of Quebec have made it clear that they have no desire to separate anytime soon, the Bloc operate under that name but just try and get Quebec perks.

mojo1016 wrote:In truth, the Bloc aren't even separatists anymore. It was under that guise that got them all of their power, but now that the people of Quebec have made it clear that they have no desire to separate anytime soon, the Bloc operate under that name but just try and get Quebec perks.

Just because the devil got fat and lazy, and has put the pitchfork away in the closet, doesn't mean you should let your guard down. Besides, they're still a party with regional-interests only.

Cap'n Clutch wrote:So where does that leave us? On Jan 26 when the Conservatives introduce the Budget it's voted down and another election is upon us or does it mean that the Coalition just has to wait until Jan 26?

I think by then the Coalition will have imploded on itself and will be no longer. I also think the Conservatives will realize they need to table a better budget and will present one that the house will support and we all will go back to our regularly scheduled program.

shabbs wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:So where does that leave us? On Jan 26 when the Conservatives introduce the Budget it's voted down and another election is upon us or does it mean that the Coalition just has to wait until Jan 26?

I think by then the Coalition will have imploded on itself and will be no longer. I also think the Conservatives will realize they need to table a better budget and will present one that the house will support and we all will go back to our regularly scheduled program.

It's already happened. At least according to the media and, let's face it, that's like the word of God as far as public perception is concerned.

One very to-the-point comment from Nfld MP:

Newfoundland MP Scott Simms said his interest in political games and
procedural "shenanigans" came to a "screeching halt" Thursday morning
when 1,100 mill workers in his riding were thrown out of work.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politics/2008/12/04/7634186-cp.html