You want the Sens to make the playoffs?

Neely4Life wrote:

asq2 wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:If we get J Bo, Spezza is basically as good as gone if he resigns.

Why? So we can have a defence but no offence?

Name one team that didn't have a Roy or Hasek goaltender and didn't have a top centremen that has one the Cup.

New Jersey won 3... Brodure wasnt the MVP in any of those playoffs either. All based on D. All of those teams that won, their strength was on thier bluelines and in goal.

Defences were more effective in the Old NHL, so New Jersey isn't a great comparison (if that were true, why isn't Florida or even Ottawa dominating?). Plus they still had guys like Arnott, Gomez and Nieuwendyk.

New Jersey is almost impossible to replicate because they have Brodeur who in addition to being a top goalie, functions as a 3rd defenceman. So many more Cup teams have been centred (haha) around top centremen.

Also, when I said a Roy or Hasek, I just generally meant a top all-time goaltender.

The thing is, we have two guys in Wiercioch and Karlsson who are in the system who can be terrific puck-movers, but we don't have anyone to replace Spezza.

Neely4Life wrote:Nothing will convince me building a strong blueline first and formost is the correct way to build a team that can compete for the stanley cup year in and year out. Sakic, Yzerman, Modano, Spezza. Remember sesame street, "one of these things is not the like other".

Uhhh...so we're in agreement then?

Although I don't think we should completely ignore the defensive side of things.

I don't get it. You criticize Spezza for not being a winner and for being bad off of the ice, and yet you like Bouwmeester who has only once in his career (including Juniors) been to the playoffs (and that was when he was traded mid-season) and who allegedly loves alcohol.

Neely4Life wrote:

504Heater wrote:Fair enough Neely, that's not too bad an assessment. I wouldn't trade any of the Big 3 personally, but I would hold faith that Murray makes a move for a real player for the blueline. He should have this summer, I don't know what he was thinking.

Ok, you keep the big 3 and then there is still tons of work. To have any shot of winning you need 15 mil spent on your blueline, minimum. So between the big 3 and the D, thats 35 million with 9 players signed. Now, what about the goalies? If Auld keep this up after next year, its 3 mil minimum for the guy and you are not going to give up a true number 1 for 3 mil.

Thats 38 million spent on 10 guys, 11-13 to go. Now, what kind of top 6 forwards are you going to get for, 2-3 mil, the kind we have now.

How do you prepare for a weak Canadian dollar and a losing team? Will the fans still come out to support the team if we are losing? Then where is the money coming from? What do you do if the cap goes down to below 50 mil (which it probabaly will with the economy and a week canadian dollar, not next year, but within the next few years it will be hovering around the 50 mil mark IMO.)

Can Murray work it all out, maybe. It still leaves big questions and the Sens could be in a tough financal spot if things dont work out.

I didnt even include the 4.2 mil Fishers makes, thats 42 mil on 11 players with basically no secondary scoring, and no 3rd and 4th liners, or a backup.

I can garantee you if the cap goes to 50M, the Sens are in a much better shape than half of the nhl.
Look at the best teams this year.
SJ = 53.8 MIllion. What are they gonna do if the cap goes to 50? Setoguchi + Clowe + PAvelski are making 4M COMBINED. IN two years, those guys are 4 MIllion minimum EACH.
Detroit = already screwed for next year. They have HOssa, Zetterberg, Franzen, Hudler and Samuelsson to resign for 15 MIllion... But at least they have a cup already... Imagine if the cap goes to 50 MIllion next year... that makes 9 MIllion to resign those 5 players, including 3 superstars...
Montreal = 9 players to resign including Komisarek (5MIllion minimum), Kovalev (6M), Koivu (5M), Tanguay (5M), Lang (4M), Bouillon (2M), Kostopoulos (2M), Latendresse (2M) and HIggins (3M) = 34M
They have 28 MIllion if the cap goes to 50. MEans one of the 5MIllion guys is out.
Boston = LIttle issues actually, the team is nearly perfect cap-wise. KEssel and Axelsson to resign, and both goalies and they have 8 MIllion left if cap goes to 50.
Pittsburg = Staal, Fedotenko, Sykora, Satan, Talbot, KEnnedy, Boucher, Gill and SAbourin for 8 MIllion!
ANd now the SEns = We would have 6 MIllion to resign a backup goalie (In Auld we believe, so pretty much it would be Elliott).
So taht leaves us with 5 MIllion to replace Kuba. Neil and McAmmond are gone for me. Bring COdy Bass and Zack Smith up with Zubov, and Trade Vermette + SChubert at the deadline for a 3Million top 6.
WE should be OK.
IN conclusion, our future relies on Auld...

Neely4Life wrote:
Ok, you keep the big 3 and then there is still tons of work. To have any shot of winning you need 15 mil spent on your blueline, minimum. So between the big 3 and the D, thats 35 million with 9 players signed. Now, what about the goalies? If Auld keep this up after next year, its 3 mil minimum for the guy and you are not going to give up a true number 1 for 3 mil.

Thats 38 million spent on 10 guys, 11-13 to go. Now, what kind of top 6 forwards are you going to get for, 2-3 mil, the kind we have now.

How do you prepare for a weak Canadian dollar and a losing team? Will the fans still come out to support the team if we are losing? Then where is the money coming from? What do you do if the cap goes down to below 50 mil (which it probabaly will with the economy and a week canadian dollar, not next year, but within the next few years it will be hovering around the 50 mil mark IMO.)

Can Murray work it all out, maybe. It still leaves big questions and the Sens could be in a tough financal spot if things dont work out.

I didnt even include the 4.2 mil Fishers makes, thats 42 mil on 11 players with basically no secondary scoring, and no 3rd and 4th liners, or a backup.

If I'm in charge - and I can do what I want, the first thing would be to try to do what I had to do to get myself Bouwmeester. With that in mind, I would start looking at the roster for next year and evaluating how much I had to spend now, how much later etc. etc.

But effectively, the next couple of years, I'm planning towards:

Forwards
1.Heatley (7.5)
2.Spezza (7.0)
3. Alfredsson (5.4)
4.Fisher (4.2 - although I might have to trade him at some point)
5.Ruutu (1.3)
6.Bass (550K)
7.Z.Smith (580K)
8.Zubov (850K)
9.Winchester (550K)
10.Foligno (850K)
11.O'Brien (850K)
12.Available for UFA spending

Subtotal 1:29.8

Defense
1.Phillips (3.5)
2.Volchenkov (2.5)
3.Picard (800K)
4.Lee (1.3)
5.Available
6.Available

Subtotal 2: 8.1

Goalies
1.Auld (1.0)
2.Elliot (850K)

Subtotal 3: 1.9

Total: 39.8 with 1 spot open for a forward and 2 spots open for D-men.

So we have ~ 12 million (maybe a little more) to upgrade the D, 7 million, 3 million and 2 million for a forward.

Whether Murray gets more creative and opens up more $$ by trading more roster players for more immediate impact will probably depend on how O'Brien, Zubov, Z.Smith, Lee etc. are all doing - and definitely how Karlsson and Wiercioch are progressing.

This plan revolves around one of Kelly or Fisher going, and Vermette definitely going - and Jason Smith is done after next year, as is Donovan, McAmmond, possibly Chris Neil, Schubert, Kuba (priced out of Ottawa I would imagine), maybe Picard.

Fiscally, the Sens have never had more money to play with - especially with the influx of young, talented and most importantly cheap talent coming up through the pipeline. Get rid of some of the redundant players and pay for some skill.

The balancing act is making sure you're prepared for the arrival of Karlsson and Wiercioch - and if you have too many spots taken - make sure those guys don't have NTCs.

I would also hope and imagine the cap flatlines at around 55 million, not decreases. And I would further hope that if Auld continues his stellar play, I can make room for him in my budget - and hopefully he doesn't command big $$.

asq2 wrote:I don't get it. You criticize Spezza for not being a winner and for being bad off of the ice, and yet you like Bouwmeester who has only once in his career (including Juniors) been to the playoffs (and that was when he was traded mid-season) and who allegedly loves alcohol.

I defently have my reservations and worries about J bo. Doesnt allegedly love alcohol, he does love it. I have heard from a few people just how wierd he is when he drinks and how much he does. This was a while ago so I dont know if things have changed but the picture wasnt pretty before.

I have the same problems with J Bo but his skill set is a lot more benifical to a team as a whole then Spezza's is.

I dont have the solutions but I do believe building a strong blueline is the most important thing. Detroit is defense 1st, Anahiem was defense 1st. Say what you want but defense still wins championships.

The J Bo thing, I think he is a guy the team should take a shot on because a 30 min D man is almost impossible to find. Spezza's arnt everywhere, but like I said, based purly on a hockey point of view, J Bo over Spezza every time.

For the recors J Bo has also played on World Champion teams for Canada along with the World Cup of Hockey championship team as well. So he has played for winners and been vital parts of those teams. Spezza, zilch.

Detroit`s Defense first is a team spirit though... NOt specific to DEfensemen only. Zetterberg, Datsyuk and Franzen are just madness when it comes to stealing the puck.

Neely4Life wrote:Doesnt allegedly love alcohol, he does love it. I have heard from a few people just how wierd he is when he drinks and how much he does.

so you heard it from other people? that still makes it alleged doesn't it? :D

504Heater wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:
Ok, you keep the big 3 and then there is still tons of work. To have any shot of winning you need 15 mil spent on your blueline, minimum. So between the big 3 and the D, thats 35 million with 9 players signed. Now, what about the goalies? If Auld keep this up after next year, its 3 mil minimum for the guy and you are not going to give up a true number 1 for 3 mil.

Thats 38 million spent on 10 guys, 11-13 to go. Now, what kind of top 6 forwards are you going to get for, 2-3 mil, the kind we have now.

How do you prepare for a weak Canadian dollar and a losing team? Will the fans still come out to support the team if we are losing? Then where is the money coming from? What do you do if the cap goes down to below 50 mil (which it probabaly will with the economy and a week canadian dollar, not next year, but within the next few years it will be hovering around the 50 mil mark IMO.)

Can Murray work it all out, maybe. It still leaves big questions and the Sens could be in a tough financal spot if things dont work out.

I didnt even include the 4.2 mil Fishers makes, thats 42 mil on 11 players with basically no secondary scoring, and no 3rd and 4th liners, or a backup.

If I'm in charge - and I can do what I want, the first thing would be to try to do what I had to do to get myself Bouwmeester. With that in mind, I would start looking at the roster for next year and evaluating how much I had to spend now, how much later etc. etc.

But effectively, the next couple of years, I'm planning towards:

Forwards
1.Heatley (7.5)
2.Spezza (7.0)
3. Alfredsson (5.4)
4.Fisher (4.2 - although I might have to trade him at some point)
5.Ruutu (1.3)
6.Bass (550K)
7.Z.Smith (580K)
8.Zubov (850K)
9.Winchester (550K)
10.Foligno (850K)
11.O'Brien (850K)
12.Available for UFA spending

Subtotal 1:29.8

Defense
1.Phillips (3.5)
2.Volchenkov (2.5)
3.Picard (800K)
4.Lee (1.3)
5.Available
6.Available

Subtotal 2: 8.1

Goalies
1.Auld (1.0)
2.Elliot (850K)

Subtotal 3: 1.9

Total: 39.8 with 1 spot open for a forward and 2 spots open for D-men.

So we have ~ 12 million (maybe a little more) to upgrade the D, 7 million, 3 million and 2 million for a forward.

Whether Murray gets more creative and opens up more $$ by trading more roster players for more immediate impact will probably depend on how O'Brien, Zubov, Z.Smith, Lee etc. are all doing - and definitely how Karlsson and Wiercioch are progressing.

This plan revolves around one of Kelly or Fisher going, and Vermette definitely going - and Jason Smith is done after next year, as is Donovan, McAmmond, possibly Chris Neil, Schubert, Kuba (priced out of Ottawa I would imagine), maybe Picard.

Fiscally, the Sens have never had more money to play with - especially with the influx of young, talented and most importantly cheap talent coming up through the pipeline. Get rid of some of the redundant players and pay for some skill.

The balancing act is making sure you're prepared for the arrival of Karlsson and Wiercioch - and if you have too many spots taken - make sure those guys don't have NTCs.

I would also hope and imagine the cap flatlines at around 55 million, not decreases. And I would further hope that if Auld continues his stellar play, I can make room for him in my budget - and hopefully he doesn't command big $$.

Ok, there are also the years after next. Fisher has a NMC, so you cant move him.

You have over looked the fact that any team that truly wants to compete for the cup has 15 plus mil invested in their blueline. Budget the team all you want and how you would do it, the reality is unless there is a serious commitment to their defense and improving the production from there, the team wont win and wont compete.

Im not looking at next year, because I dont think they will be in the playoffs with the team they have no next year either.

And yeah, some teams will be in trouble if the cap goes down, thats fine, but how does that effect Ottawa in anyway?

Tukker wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:Doesnt allegedly love alcohol, he does love it. I have heard from a few people just how wierd he is when he drinks and how much he does.

so you heard it from other people? that still makes it alleged doesn't it? :D

You can say its alleged, I know it as fact.

marakh wrote:Detroit`s Defense first is a team spirit though... NOt specific to DEfensemen only. Zetterberg, Datsyuk and Franzen are just madness when it comes to stealing the puck.

A team has to buy into a defense first mentality, but none of their offense suffers because of it.

Detroit is a defense first team and it has a serious investment in their D. Im not sure about the exact number but it has to be close to 20 mil.

Neely4Life wrote:
A team has to buy into a defense first mentality, but none of their offense suffers because of it.

Detroit is a defense first team and it has a serious investment in their D. Im not sure about the exact number but it has to be close to 20 mil.

What do you mean? If you change from an offense-based system to a defensive system, there's gonna be a crash - and we're experiencing it.

504Heater wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:
A team has to buy into a defense first mentality, but none of their offense suffers because of it.

Detroit is a defense first team and it has a serious investment in their D. Im not sure about the exact number but it has to be close to 20 mil.

What do you mean? If you change from an offense-based system to a defensive system, there's gonna be a crash - and we're experiencing it.

Look at Detroit and Anahiem. All of their forwards play a very responsible game and their numbers actually increase because of it. They have the will to skate back and get the puck, control the game and let other teams chase them. They are on you the second the other team gets the puck.

If you look at Boston and San Jose as well, all a defense first mentality and they put up an insane amount of goals. Their main concern is making sure they control the puck and letting the other team have it as little as possible. Its based on a EXPIERENCED group of D that know where to go in all situations, what to do with the puck when they get it, and what to do when they get rid of the puck.

I love the drafting Murray has done and am as excitted as anyone about Karlsson and others, but to think a group of rookie D men or 20 something D men are going to lead a team that has problems getting their forwards to play both ways consistantly is not realiztic. We literally have about 10 years before we see the best of Karlsson or anyone else we drafted. People need to gain a little perspective here.

Actually, now that you mention the Bruins, I see the Sens progressing a lot like they did. Remember how they couldn't score to save their life under Julien in his first year?

marakh wrote:Detroit`s Defense first is a team spirit though... NOt specific to DEfensemen only. Zetterberg, Datsyuk and Franzen are just madness when it comes to stealing the puck.

It never hurts to have Lidstrom either. Or a point-producer like Rafalski. Or guys like Lebda and Kronwall.

Look at Anaheim. Pronger and Niedermayer. Beauchemin and O'Donnell.

Those teams had the guys on the backend that can get the job done going both ways.

Although Phillips and Volchenkov are standouts (usually) defensively, they don't have that other dimension to their game. It's too easy to play against guys that are not a threat with the puck.

PKC wrote:

marakh wrote:Detroit`s Defense first is a team spirit though... NOt specific to DEfensemen only. Zetterberg, Datsyuk and Franzen are just madness when it comes to stealing the puck.

It never hurts to have Lidstrom either. Or a point-producer like Rafalski. Or guys like Lebda and Kronwall.

Look at Anaheim. Pronger and Niedermayer. Beauchemin and O'Donnell.

Those teams had the guys on the backend that can get the job done going both ways.

Although Phillips and Volchenkov are standouts (usually) defensively, they don't have that other dimension to their game. It's too easy to play against guys that are not a threat with the puck.

Buffalo, Pittsburgh and New Jersey didn't have much success against them in '06-'07.

504Heater wrote:Actually, now that you mention the Bruins, I see the Sens progressing a lot like they did. Remember how they couldn't score to save their life under Julien in his first year?

They also traded Thornton too.

asq2 wrote:

PKC wrote:

marakh wrote:Detroit`s Defense first is a team spirit though... NOt specific to DEfensemen only. Zetterberg, Datsyuk and Franzen are just madness when it comes to stealing the puck.

It never hurts to have Lidstrom either. Or a point-producer like Rafalski. Or guys like Lebda and Kronwall.

Look at Anaheim. Pronger and Niedermayer. Beauchemin and O'Donnell.

Those teams had the guys on the backend that can get the job done going both ways.

Although Phillips and Volchenkov are standouts (usually) defensively, they don't have that other dimension to their game. It's too easy to play against guys that are not a threat with the puck.

Buffalo, Pittsburgh and New Jersey didn't have much success against them in '06-'07.

Anahiem sure did though.