Ottawa Senators (present and past) TIDBITS & QUICK HITS!

spader wrote:

wprager wrote:This is also from the article:

Should Hoffman earn a contract in the $4 million range, the Senators would move into the top half of the NHL in payroll, at about $65.7 million, raising questions about whether they would consider trading him.

There is Senators history in that regard. A decade ago, the Senators signed Marian Hossa to a three-year, $18 million contract before a scheduled arbitration hearing, then promptly traded him to Atlanta for Dany Heatley, partly because of a cash crunch.

In Hossa's case Heatbag's salary was $1.75 vs. the $2.75M that Hossa got, so only $1M difference.  I always thought, at the time, that the reason they moved Hossa was not money but that he appeared to care more about money than the team.

Anyhow, the only way I see them keeping Hoffman is if they can unload some more salary (Greening+Smith vs. Puempel+Price, for example, or trading Neil).

Heatley made $3.5M when he was traded to Ottawa, and Hossa made $5M (first year of a 3-year deal paying $5M, $6M, $7M). The (playing) year prior, Heatley made $1.075M. I don't know where you're getting your numbers, but you should consider generalfanager.com.

SpezDispensed wrote:Yeah, Hossa was due 6 X 3 on AVV I believe it was.

SpezDispensed wrote:

spader wrote:

SpezDispensed wrote:Yeah, Hossa was due 6 X 3 on AVV I believe it was.

That's right. The infamous sign-and-trade.

Cursed us for a long time.

wprager wrote:

spader wrote:

wprager wrote:Salary vs. salary is a stupid distinction unless you are moving an aging veteran.  Saad is making $6M for 6 seasons, end of discussion.  Hoffman put up point very comparable to Saad's playing fewer minutes on a worse team.  

Do you think Saad believes he's making $6M this season? If we're talking about comparing salaries to figure out what someone will make next year on a one-year deal, why wouldn't you look at actual salary?

Also, he isn't making $6M for 6 seasons. Just because you say "end of discussion" doesn't mean you aren't wrong. He makes $4M, $5.75M, $6.25M, $6.75M, $6.75M, and $6.5M over 6 seasons. Why not take your thinking another step and say that Saad makes $4.3M a season? (I just averaged out his total earnings to date, including his new contract.)

Does it matter what the Diddle Saad thinks?  Of course not.  He's not going to be in on the negotiations or the ruling.  It's the team, the player's rep and the arbitrator.  The fact that the NHL has guaranteed contracts (unlike the NFL, for example) makes the year-by-year breakdown irrelevant during aribitration.  What is relevant is the length and the UFA years, of course.  I think Saad is 22 so that contract buys 1 year of UFA?  Maybe 2.  Don't know what that equates to in terms of reducing that $6M but it's irrefutable that the talk starts at the $6M AAV and not the $4M he's getting paid this year.

O'Reilly is making $1M salary each year but something like a $10M signing bonus in the first year.  You think anyone using him as a comparable will use either the $1M figure or the $11M figure in their negotiations?

You are being ridiculous for the point of arguing.  Intelligent discussion is over.

wprager wrote:

SpezDispensed wrote:

spader wrote:

SpezDispensed wrote:Yeah, Hossa was due 6 X 3 on AVV I believe it was.

That's right. The infamous sign-and-trade.

Cursed us for a long time.

Cost us Chara according to some, too.

wprager wrote:

SpezDispensed wrote:Yeah, Hossa was due 6 X 3 on AVV I believe it was.

Again, the only point I was making is that the Sens were only saving $1M per season with Heatley.  Now, back then $1M was a bigger percentage of your payroll, but I still don't agree that it was a huge part of the decision.

wprager wrote:

spader wrote:

wprager wrote:Salary vs. salary is a stupid distinction unless you are moving an aging veteran.  Saad is making $6M for 6 seasons, end of discussion.  Hoffman put up point very comparable to Saad's playing fewer minutes on a worse team.  

Do you think Saad believes he's making $6M this season? If we're talking about comparing salaries to figure out what someone will make next year on a one-year deal, why wouldn't you look at actual salary?

Also, he isn't making $6M for 6 seasons. Just because you say "end of discussion" doesn't mean you aren't wrong. He makes $4M, $5.75M, $6.25M, $6.75M, $6.75M, and $6.5M over 6 seasons. Why not take your thinking another step and say that Saad makes $4.3M a season? (I just averaged out his total earnings to date, including his new contract.)

Does it matter what the Diddle Saad thinks?  Of course not.  He's not going to be in on the negotiations or the ruling.  It's the team, the player's rep and the arbitrator.  The fact that the NHL has guaranteed contracts (unlike the NFL, for example) makes the year-by-year breakdown irrelevant during aribitration.  What is relevant is the length and the UFA years, of course.  I think Saad is 22 so that contract buys 1 year of UFA?  Maybe 2.  Don't know what that equates to in terms of reducing that $6M but it's irrefutable that the talk starts at the $6M AAV and not the $4M he's getting paid this year.

O'Reilly is making $1M salary each year but something like a $10M signing bonus in the first year.  You think anyone using him as a comparable will use either the $1M figure or the $11M figure in their negotiations?

You are being ridiculous for the point of arguing.  Intelligent discussion is over.

spader wrote:

wprager wrote:

spader wrote:

wprager wrote:Salary vs. salary is a stupid distinction unless you are moving an aging veteran.  Saad is making $6M for 6 seasons, end of discussion.  Hoffman put up point very comparable to Saad's playing fewer minutes on a worse team.  

Do you think Saad believes he's making $6M this season? If we're talking about comparing salaries to figure out what someone will make next year on a one-year deal, why wouldn't you look at actual salary?

Also, he isn't making $6M for 6 seasons. Just because you say "end of discussion" doesn't mean you aren't wrong. He makes $4M, $5.75M, $6.25M, $6.75M, $6.75M, and $6.5M over 6 seasons. Why not take your thinking another step and say that Saad makes $4.3M a season? (I just averaged out his total earnings to date, including his new contract.)

Does it matter what the Diddle Saad thinks?  Of course not.  He's not going to be in on the negotiations or the ruling.  It's the team, the player's rep and the arbitrator.  The fact that the NHL has guaranteed contracts (unlike the NFL, for example) makes the year-by-year breakdown irrelevant during aribitration.  What is relevant is the length and the UFA years, of course.  I think Saad is 22 so that contract buys 1 year of UFA?  Maybe 2.  Don't know what that equates to in terms of reducing that $6M but it's irrefutable that the talk starts at the $6M AAV and not the $4M he's getting paid this year.

O'Reilly is making $1M salary each year but something like a $10M signing bonus in the first year.  You think anyone using him as a comparable will use either the $1M figure or the $11M figure in their negotiations?

You are being ridiculous for the point of arguing.  Intelligent discussion is over.

FWIW, I'm not the only one disagreeing with you.  I'm not trying to argue for the sake of arguing, I flat out think you're wrong. Frankly, I find your position nonsensical. The guy makes $4M. As several other people have pointed out, that's the number they'll use for the arbitration process.

EDIT: Also, ROR won't be used as a comparable. His last contract brought him to UFA, so he isn't eligible as a comparable. So, aside from probably being the most unique contract in the league, there's no way his contract would be a factor in the conversation.

spader wrote:

wprager wrote:

SpezDispensed wrote:Yeah, Hossa was due 6 X 3 on AVV I believe it was.

Again, the only point I was making is that the Sens were only saving $1M per season with Heatley.  Now, back then $1M was a bigger percentage of your payroll, but I still don't agree that it was a huge part of the decision.

$1.5. Hossa made $5M, and Heatbag made $3.5M.

wprager wrote:

spader wrote:

wprager wrote:

SpezDispensed wrote:Yeah, Hossa was due 6 X 3 on AVV I believe it was.

Again, the only point I was making is that the Sens were only saving $1M per season with Heatley.  Now, back then $1M was a bigger percentage of your payroll, but I still don't agree that it was a huge part of the decision.

$1.5. Hossa made $5M, and Heatbag made $3.5M.

Boy, sure isn't my day.  OK it was $1.5M.  I guess it's getting to the point where it was a non-trivial amount of money saved.

But still doesn't make up for that $4M pre-trade bonus.

Sylvain St-Laurent ‏@Syl_St_Laurent Jul 17 Gatineau, Québec
I'm told #Sens prospect Thomas Chabot (@ThomasChabot1) will be getting a late invite to Hockey Canada's WJC summer camp.

spader wrote:As reported on HF:

Sylvain St-Laurent ‏@Syl_St_Laurent  Jul 17 Gatineau, Québec
I'm told #Sens prospect Thomas Chabot (@ThomasChabot1) will be getting a late invite to Hockey Canada's WJC summer camp.

That's good news.

wprager wrote:Speaking of the WJC, what other Sens prospects are going?  White played for USA in the U17 and U18 and he's not turning 19 until the end of January, so he's eligible.  Englund played last year and is turning 19 in January as well.  Chabot just got an invite.  Lindberg just turned 19.  Beyond the first rounders this draft, anyone have a chance?  Maybe Chlapik (there were two Czechs picked in Round 1; Chlapik was the third Czech picked).

wprager wrote:Speaking of the WJC, what other Sens prospects are going?  White played for USA in the U17 and U18 and he's not turning 19 until the end of January, so he's eligible.  Englund played last year and is turning 19 in January as well.  Chabot just got an invite.  Lindberg just turned 19.  Beyond the first rounders this draft, anyone have a chance?  Maybe Chlapik (there were two Czechs picked in Round 1; Chlapik was the third Czech picked).

LeCaptain wrote:

wprager wrote:Speaking of the WJC, what other Sens prospects are going?  White played for USA in the U17 and U18 and he's not turning 19 until the end of January, so he's eligible.  Englund played last year and is turning 19 in January as well.  Chabot just got an invite.  Lindberg just turned 19.  Beyond the first rounders this draft, anyone have a chance?  Maybe Chlapik (there were two Czechs picked in Round 1; Chlapik was the third Czech picked).

They can play if they are 19 eh.
Its an under 20 tournament.

wprager wrote:

LeCaptain wrote:

wprager wrote:Speaking of the WJC, what other Sens prospects are going?  White played for USA in the U17 and U18 and he's not turning 19 until the end of January, so he's eligible.  Englund played last year and is turning 19 in January as well.  Chabot just got an invite.  Lindberg just turned 19.  Beyond the first rounders this draft, anyone have a chance?  Maybe Chlapik (there were two Czechs picked in Round 1; Chlapik was the third Czech picked).

They can play if they are 19 eh.
Its an under 20 tournament.

Question wasn't who was eligible.  I just listed the ones that are.  But which ones will get the invite?