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SpezDispensed wrote:

spader wrote:

SpezDispensed wrote:Yeah, Hossa was due 6 X 3 on AVV I believe it was.

That's right. The infamous sign-and-trade.

Cursed us for a long time.

At the time I think it was warranted. Hossa is the bomb, but $6M AAV was too much for the team at that point. Considering that number was what we heard from the beginning of the negotiation, I think he could have come down a bit and stayed on the team. Of course, not having been in the room, this is all speculation.

spader wrote:

SpezDispensed wrote:

spader wrote:

SpezDispensed wrote:Yeah, Hossa was due 6 X 3 on AVV I believe it was.

That's right. The infamous sign-and-trade.

Cursed us for a long time.

At the time I think it was warranted. Hossa is the bomb, but $6M AAV was too much for the team at that point. Considering that number was what we heard from the beginning of the negotiation, I think he could have come down a bit and stayed on the team. Of course, not having been in the room, this is all speculation.

Meh, hindsight is 20/20, but Muckler had no idea how to manage the salary cap or what would come in a cap world and he made some unfortunate errors (Chara).

Also, the Hossa thing really Cussed up the room for a while I think. You lose a guy who is serious about winning and you add...Dany Heatley, who was awesome for us obviously, but...

Chara was also pissed about Hossa, I think. Lots of silly business back then.

Flo The Action wrote:

SpezDispensed wrote:

Ev wrote:

SpezDispensed wrote:

Michallica wrote:Oh and Shane Prince signed to a 1 year, 2 way contract at $700K/$120K (NHL/AHL)

Awesome signing.  This kid could easily make the NHL full time if a couple of injuries hit.  700K is a beauty of a bargain.

He's waiver eligible too, so he can't be waived.  Again, 700K for an NHLer is ridiculous, especially one who was top 10 in AHL scoring last year and was good in a brief callup.

How is it a bargain? What else was he gonna get? 700K for a prospect who has (basically) never played in the NHL is standard business.

It's one year, so I guess it's not a stunning deal.  But that's not a lot to pay for a solid prospect who's basically done their development.  Scraping the bottom of the barrel so to speak.

the biggest problem if you ask me is especially at that salary a lot of teams will pick him up if we end up having to waive him and take a chance on him.
First chance he gets at a deal he pretty much has to stick. I'm not a big fan of this situation.
If you ask me this is a big part of the reason I'd part ways with certain players or send them to bingo. Make room for guys that we can't lose. I mean you don't hand them the job but you give them a fair chance to take it.

Players who are waiver eligible almost always pass through waivers in September without issue. Any team that claims a player has to play that player in the NHL, and the second they demote that player to the AHL, the team who lost the player on waivers in the first place has first dibs. There's a reason you almost never see this happen. Really not much to worry about here.

Good point Rooney. That being said, if prince can really impress, he can force their hand and have puempel/lazar get demoted to the ahl to start the year, and neither of them is subjected to waivers.

The only legit concern might be buffalo if prince is waived, tim murray might be the only one who has a true feel for prince's potential

rooneypoo wrote:

Flo The Action wrote:

SpezDispensed wrote:

Ev wrote:

SpezDispensed wrote:

Michallica wrote:Oh and Shane Prince signed to a 1 year, 2 way contract at $700K/$120K (NHL/AHL)

Awesome signing.  This kid could easily make the NHL full time if a couple of injuries hit.  700K is a beauty of a bargain.

He's waiver eligible too, so he can't be waived.  Again, 700K for an NHLer is ridiculous, especially one who was top 10 in AHL scoring last year and was good in a brief callup.

How is it a bargain? What else was he gonna get? 700K for a prospect who has (basically) never played in the NHL is standard business.

It's one year, so I guess it's not a stunning deal.  But that's not a lot to pay for a solid prospect who's basically done their development.  Scraping the bottom of the barrel so to speak.

the biggest problem if you ask me is especially at that salary a lot of teams will pick him up if we end up having to waive him and take a chance on him.
First chance he gets at a deal he pretty much has to stick. I'm not a big fan of this situation.
If you ask me this is a big part of the reason I'd part ways with certain players or send them to bingo. Make room for guys that we can't lose. I mean you don't hand them the job but you give them a fair chance to take it.

Players who are waiver eligible almost always pass through waivers in September without issue. Any team that claims a player has to play that player in the NHL, and the second they demote that player to the AHL, the team who lost the player on waivers in the first place has first dibs. There's a reason you almost never see this happen. Really not much to worry about here.

yes but a team like Buffalo could do it. This is how the islanders ended up with hickey. They claimed him off waivers at the beginning of the season. Don't think Lombardi was overjoyed with that. There should be a minor compensation if you claim a player off waivers under a certain age or off that contract and he sticks on your team for the whole year.. A low pick or something. It diddles with organizations that are extremely successful at developing players.

Michallica wrote:Good point Rooney.  That being said, if prince can really impress, he can force their hand and have puempel/lazar get demoted to the ahl to start the year, and neither of them is subjected to waivers.

The only legit concern might be buffalo if prince is waived, tim murray might be the only one who has a true feel for prince's potential

When does camp start? Two months? I can't wait that long for answers.

Flo The Action wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Flo The Action wrote:

SpezDispensed wrote:

Ev wrote:

SpezDispensed wrote:

Michallica wrote:Oh and Shane Prince signed to a 1 year, 2 way contract at $700K/$120K (NHL/AHL)

Awesome signing.  This kid could easily make the NHL full time if a couple of injuries hit.  700K is a beauty of a bargain.

He's waiver eligible too, so he can't be waived.  Again, 700K for an NHLer is ridiculous, especially one who was top 10 in AHL scoring last year and was good in a brief callup.

How is it a bargain? What else was he gonna get? 700K for a prospect who has (basically) never played in the NHL is standard business.

It's one year, so I guess it's not a stunning deal.  But that's not a lot to pay for a solid prospect who's basically done their development.  Scraping the bottom of the barrel so to speak.

the biggest problem if you ask me is especially at that salary a lot of teams will pick him up if we end up having to waive him and take a chance on him.
First chance he gets at a deal he pretty much has to stick. I'm not a big fan of this situation.
If you ask me this is a big part of the reason I'd part ways with certain players or send them to bingo. Make room for guys that we can't lose. I mean you don't hand them the job but you give them a fair chance to take it.

Players who are waiver eligible almost always pass through waivers in September without issue. Any team that claims a player has to play that player in the NHL, and the second they demote that player to the AHL, the team who lost the player on waivers in the first place has first dibs. There's a reason you almost never see this happen. Really not much to worry about here.

yes but a team like Buffalo could do it. This is how the islanders ended up with hickey. They claimed him off waivers at the beginning of the season. Don't think Lombardi was overjoyed with that. There should be a minor compensation if you claim a player off waivers under a certain age or off that contract and he sticks on your team for the whole year.. A low pick or something. It diddles with organizations that are extremely successful at developing players.

I don't deny it's possible, but I can only think of 2-3 times it's happened since the 2005 lockout. It's not a no-risk situation, totally true, but it certainly is a low-probability scenario.

If Prince is waived Buffalo will pick him up. He's a kid who could have gone in the 1st round, has been developed nicely, and has NHL skill while being close to NHL ready as a player.

Sens need to move bodies and have for a while, gotta see what shakes out over the summer. Losing Prince is a concern though and if Chaisson makes it to arbitration they are better off letting him walk for nothing vs Prince being picked up or even the risk of it.

Maybe, maybe not -- BUF has a tonne of bodies at forward themselves: http://www.generalfanager.com/teams/buffalo-sabres. You can like a player all you want, but I'd think that sending guys in the organization down to the minors to make room for a guy from another organization with little NHL experience is going to be a tough one to swallow for players.

Not with the guy that drafted Prince. Again, I am of the belief that it's better to let Chaisson walk for nothing than risk that with Prince.

NEELY wrote:Not with the guy that drafted Prince.  Again, I am of the belief that it's better to let Chaisson walk for nothing than risk that with Prince.  

as much as I have said that I would like to see what chiasson can do this year if I have to choose I'd much rather roll the dice and try what Prince can do and let chiasson walk than the other way around. I think Prince is close to being that guy. And even a guy that can make a line click. If they could put him with pageau and michalek you might see something nice. Even if you were to play him with smith and puempel (although that's a lot of green on one line) that would be better than having Neil there.

Good interview with Pierre Dorion, talks more about prospects like prince, paul, and white. High praise for all three (especially Paul). Also updates on contract negotiations.

http://www.tsn.ca/radio/ottawa-1200/dorion-prince-has-potential-to-be-everyday-nhl-player-1.331564

wprager wrote:Salary vs. salary is a stupid distinction unless you are moving an aging veteran.  Saad is making $6M for 6 seasons, end of discussion.  Hoffman put up point very comparable to Saad's playing fewer minutes on a worse team.  

To an arbitrator Saad makes 4M next year.

Now it's the end of discussion.

Oglethorpe wrote:

wprager wrote:Salary vs. salary is a stupid distinction unless you are moving an aging veteran.  Saad is making $6M for 6 seasons, end of discussion.  Hoffman put up point very comparable to Saad's playing fewer minutes on a worse team.  

To an arbitrator Saad makes 4M next year.  

Now it's the end of discussion.

Do we have a "dropping the mic" emoji?

spader wrote:

wprager wrote:Salary vs. salary is a stupid distinction unless you are moving an aging veteran.  Saad is making $6M for 6 seasons, end of discussion.  Hoffman put up point very comparable to Saad's playing fewer minutes on a worse team.  

Do you think Saad believes he's making $6M this season? If we're talking about comparing salaries to figure out what someone will make next year on a one-year deal, why wouldn't you look at actual salary?

Also, he isn't making $6M for 6 seasons. Just because you say "end of discussion" doesn't mean you aren't wrong. He makes $4M, $5.75M, $6.25M, $6.75M, $6.75M, and $6.5M over 6 seasons. Why not take your thinking another step and say that Saad makes $4.3M a season? (I just averaged out his total earnings to date, including his new contract.)

Does it matter what the Diddle Saad thinks? Of course not. He's not going to be in on the negotiations or the ruling. It's the team, the player's rep and the arbitrator. The fact that the NHL has guaranteed contracts (unlike the NFL, for example) makes the year-by-year breakdown irrelevant during aribitration. What is relevant is the length and the UFA years, of course. I think Saad is 22 so that contract buys 1 year of UFA? Maybe 2. Don't know what that equates to in terms of reducing that $6M but it's irrefutable that the talk starts at the $6M AAV and not the $4M he's getting paid this year.

O'Reilly is making $1M salary each year but something like a $10M signing bonus in the first year. You think anyone using him as a comparable will use either the $1M figure or the $11M figure in their negotiations?

You are being ridiculous for the point of arguing. Intelligent discussion is over.

spader wrote:

wprager wrote:This is also from the article:

Should Hoffman earn a contract in the $4 million range, the Senators would move into the top half of the NHL in payroll, at about $65.7 million, raising questions about whether they would consider trading him.

There is Senators history in that regard. A decade ago, the Senators signed Marian Hossa to a three-year, $18 million contract before a scheduled arbitration hearing, then promptly traded him to Atlanta for Dany Heatley, partly because of a cash crunch.

In Hossa's case Heatbag's salary was $1.75 vs. the $2.75M that Hossa got, so only $1M difference.  I always thought, at the time, that the reason they moved Hossa was not money but that he appeared to care more about money than the team.

Anyhow, the only way I see them keeping Hoffman is if they can unload some more salary (Greening+Smith vs. Puempel+Price, for example, or trading Neil).

Heatley made $3.5M when he was traded to Ottawa, and Hossa made $5M (first year of a 3-year deal paying $5M, $6M, $7M). The (playing) year prior, Heatley made $1.075M. I don't know where you're getting your numbers, but you should consider generalfanager.com.

I may have screwed up on the year of the trade but I remember the $1M difference clear as day. The day he got traded I thought we got a better (at the time) player for $1M less and got rid of a malcontent who valued personal gain more than the success of the team.

And, at the time, I don't think I was too far off the mark. Hossa was immature back then. The decisions he made later trying to win the Cup kinda show what he was like later. He didn't sign for money, he signed where he thought he'd have the best chance at winning a Cup.

SpezDispensed wrote:Yeah, Hossa was due 6 X 3 on AVV I believe it was.

Again, the only point I was making is that the Sens were only saving $1M per season with Heatley. Now, back then $1M was a bigger percentage of your payroll, but I still don't agree that it was a huge part of the decision.

SpezDispensed wrote:

spader wrote:

SpezDispensed wrote:Yeah, Hossa was due 6 X 3 on AVV I believe it was.

That's right. The infamous sign-and-trade.

Cursed us for a long time.

Cost us Chara according to some, too.