The Expendables - Ottawa Edition

Cap'n Clutch wrote:As I see it, and I'm probably not alone, the teams that are seen as top 4 teams are the Habs, TBay, NYR in the east and in the west - CHI, STL (was supposed to be but they've become the chokers as were the Sens and SJ in the past), NSH was supposed to be but they had the bad luck of facing CHI in round 1 and losing one of the best D men to be playing right now. And of course there's ANA.  Ottawa isn't there yet.

So there are 6 contenders in the NHL, and 2 of them are phoney, and another two are ones that OTT would have had a legitimate shot at beating. So really, there are just two 'contenders,' NYR and CHI.

See, that's my point. That definition is too exclusive. To me, there are at least 8-12 teams every year who have legitimate shots at making the final 4.

Cap'n Clutch wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:I don't think Ottawa would get past TBay, I don't think Ottawa would get past NYI or WAS so I don't agree with you.  Not over thought and not overwritten.

People can think negatively or positively, if you want to go with your gut, that's fine, although it has no greater defence than that. Look at OTT's record this year against those teams this year (TB: 2 wins, 2 loses; NYI: 1W, 2Ls; WAS: 1W, 2L -- just about every single game was decided by 1 goal, too) and look at OTT's record down the stretch. Your gut might tell you this team couldn't have competed with TB, NYI, or WAS, but nothing else that is in any way empirical would tell you that.

Stick to your gut if you want, but don't pretend there's anything to the opinion beyond that.

And to think that the Sens are definitely going to improve and are definitely going to duplicate the stretch run they did this year is nothing but gut as well.  There's nothing emperical, that you've shown me, that would suggest that the Sens would and should be in the final 4 next season, even with a couple tweeks.

Nothing empirical... except all the data from the second half of the season.



Carry on.

Keep dreamin'.  A mircale run that likely won't be repeated is the standard by which the Sens are to be judged for an 82 game season.  

Look, it's not about repeating that run. It's about what the run represents for the franchise in terms of it having turned a corner and having its youth come of age. The GM for OTT this summer will not be thinking about this year as another year of building, which was the mindset last summer. Re-sign the youth, trade some of the extraneous parts for a top 4 D or top 6 forward, and make one significant (not blockboster) UFA signing -- that's the path forward for this franchise this summer if we're going to make an already competitive team even stronger.

Prepare to be surprised next season, I think. What was the fluke? The last half of the season, or the crappy first half of the season where we had a coach that literally looked like he was out to be fired.

There won't be monumental changes in the off-season, we're coming in full of confidence, Pageau is a major piece on line 3, Stone is now a star, Ryan should be up to speed and most importantly Cameron's system will be in place.

SpezDispensed wrote:Prepare to be surprised next season, I think.  What was the fluke?  The last half of the season, or the crappy first half of the season where we had a coach that literally looked like he was out to be fired.

There won't be monumental changes in the off-season, we're coming in full of confidence, Pageau is a major piece on line 3, Stone is now a star, Ryan should be up to speed and most importantly Cameron's system will be in place.

Do you think all your sudden criticism of "Mac" will undo all the repeated, enthusiastic praise you had for him previously? It won't. Your frequent compliments and high praise are a matter of public record as is your Stone-less "untouchable" list from just a couple of months ago.

SpezDispensed almost has 50,000 posts.

Ev wrote:SpezDispensed almost has 50,000 posts.

Half of them are about how great "Mac" is.

SpezDispensed wrote:Prepare to be surprised next season, I think.  What was the fluke?  The last half of the season, or the crappy first half of the season where we had a coach that literally looked like he was out to be fired.

There won't be monumental changes in the off-season, we're coming in full of confidence, Pageau is a major piece on line 3, Stone is now a star, Ryan should be up to speed and most importantly Cameron's system will be in place.

Agreed. Re-sign the youth; trade Cowen/a goalie/whatever to add one top 4 D or, more likely, top-6 forward; shed the little piece you have that aren't a part of the youth movement as best you can; then make one UFA signing of substance (top 4 D or top 6 forward -- whatever you didn't get in the trade), but not someone who costs you a huge term. It's not a hugely complicated or expensive plan.

All of last year tells us that we will spend on our core, so I'm not worried about what will happen with Stone or Zbad, although I think we will (rightfully) force Hoffman into accepting a short-term deal. One look at our roster tells you that we're primed to make a trade of substance, too, so I don't see any debate there. So the only question is how much the RFA re-signings will cost and if we have the $4-5 mil / yr we'll need to make one UFA add of substance. Even there, I couldn't blame the team for waiting to see if this team is for real and then making a trade mid-season.

Ev wrote:Add Condra and Wiercioch to the list in my opinion. Not saying I want to get rid of Wiercioch but he could be use in an upgrade

Wiercioch next year is an upgrade from Wiercioch this year.

Seriously the guys path to the NHL is 100% like Keiths was, give him time and you are going to have a very, very good D man and sign at a reasonable cost too.

rooneypoo wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:I don't think Ottawa would get past TBay, I don't think Ottawa would get past NYI or WAS so I don't agree with you.  Not over thought and not overwritten.

People can think negatively or positively, if you want to go with your gut, that's fine, although it has no greater defence than that. Look at OTT's record this year against those teams this year (TB: 2 wins, 2 loses; NYI: 1W, 2Ls; WAS: 1W, 2L -- just about every single game was decided by 1 goal, too) and look at OTT's record down the stretch. Your gut might tell you this team couldn't have competed with TB, NYI, or WAS, but nothing else that is in any way empirical would tell you that.

Stick to your gut if you want, but don't pretend there's anything to the opinion beyond that.

And to think that the Sens are definitely going to improve and are definitely going to duplicate the stretch run they did this year is nothing but gut as well.  There's nothing emperical, that you've shown me, that would suggest that the Sens would and should be in the final 4 next season, even with a couple tweeks.

Nothing empirical... except all the data from the second half of the season.



Carry on.

Keep dreamin'.  A mircale run that likely won't be repeated is the standard by which the Sens are to be judged for an 82 game season.  

Look, it's not about repeating that run. It's about what the run represents for the franchise in terms of it having turned a corner and having its youth come of age. The GM for OTT this summer will not be thinking about this year as another year of building, which was the mindset last summer. Re-sign the youth, trade some of the extraneous parts for a top 4 D or top 6 forward, and make one significant (not blockboster) UFA signing -- that's the path forward for this franchise this summer if we're going to make an already competitive team even stronger.

I agree with this for the most part. The run represented the turning of the page to the next chapter in Sens history and cemented a new core for the team to build around. People have gravitated towards Karlsson, Stone, even Anderson after those 4 games as the players people want to grow with.

Yah, some signings could be made but I think a trade is most beneficial to the franchise.

You can kiss Cowen goodbye and that can't come soon enough.

I think Lehner will be history and part of a deal with Cowen

Hoffman, could go either way.

Phillips - retire or LTIR... at best the #8 dman.

Neil - maybe the 13th forward

Condra - think he's gone.

Gryba - good 6, 7 dman that can split time with Wideman

Legwand - future sun dog.

man people need to chill with this Anderson Dung. He played a good 3 games. Whatever. We haven't won with him and he's expendable

No goalie could have won with the lineup we had last few years.

We haven't won anything with Lehner either. Hell Hammond has done more in the NHL than he has in less time.

If they thought Lehner would be #1 anytime soon they wouldn't have extended Anderson again.

Ev wrote:man people need to chill with this Anderson Dung. He played a good 3 games. Whatever. We haven't won with him and he's expendable

The Ottawa Senators have won far, far less with Lehner. It would be different if there was some, any glimpse of promise in his NHL career to look back to -- and, no, 3 games in January one year doesn't quite cut it.

For the record, I'm not down on Lehner (or Anderson), but this will be a much tougher call for the organization than any Lehner advocates care to admit.

Hoags wrote:No goalie could have won with the lineup we had last few years.

We haven't won anything with Lehner either. Hell Hammond has done more in the NHL than he has in less time.

If they thought Lehner would be #1 anytime soon they wouldn't have extended Anderson again.

You realize that makes no sense, right?

rooneypoo wrote:

Ev wrote:man people need to chill with this Anderson Dung. He played a good 3 games. Whatever. We haven't won with him and he's expendable

The Ottawa Senators have won far, far less with Lehner. It would be different if there was some, any glimpse of promise in his NHL career to look back to -- and, no, 3 games in January one year doesn't quite cut it.

For the record, I'm not down on Lehner (or Anderson), but this will be a much tougher call for the organization than any Lehner advocates care to admit.

There's tons but MacLean refused to give him the net despite putting the team on his back on more than 1 occasion. MacLean has borderline destroyed an extremely promising prospects and a guy who has shown how good he is at the AHL and how good he can be at the NHL level.

I'm sitting here telling people I wouldn't move Lehner because I would in the right circumstance but saying he hasn't shown the ability to be a #1 is BS. He has.

Lehner has proven that when he's given consistent starts, he gets in a groove. I've always said I think he'll be a top 5 goalie someday and I stand by that.

It's easy as far as I'm concerned. Flipping lehner to go with Anderson is a short sighted option. For the sens to be contenders for the next 10 years I don't see Anderson being that guy obviously age alone and what we have down the pipeline is even more doubtful.
I'd rather we shove lehner I'm there and work with the growing pains the way Montreal did with price than let one of our most promising prospects go with nothing much coming up. Sorry but I'm not excited about anything else we have coming up.

tim1_2 wrote:Lehner has proven that when he's given consistent starts, he gets in a groove. I've always said I think he'll be a top 5 goalie someday and I stand by that.

Well, except this year. He got quite a few starts when Anderson went down and did poorly. I'm not saying this to dispute your point because I believe Lehner still will be a #1 goalie but he needs to be given the crease. This year was pretty much a waste.

You got to earn your starts in the crease.

Although MacLean insisting Anderson play 70+ games per season wasn't the way to do it.