The Expendables - Ottawa Edition

Cap'n Clutch wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:

SpezDispensed wrote:Bottom line - where do people, must importantly our brass - see this team next year?  A contender?  A playoff team?  A fringe playoff team?  

If they truly think the time has come, you need to make some key acquisitions.  

This team should be a playoff team but, certainly not a contender.  Anderson absolutely should be traded now.  I agree with Ev.  It's interesting how everything is, what have you done for me lately.  Anderson has his annual injury vacation, is a head case and his value is right to trade him.  If you think the Sens brass are going to make enough acquisitions to make this team a cup contender you're dreaming in technicolour.  Some players will have set backs.  They are going to remain patient with this team and if that's the case this is not a Cup contender and is merely a playoff team that should win a round.

If you're a playoff team, then you're a contender, plain and simple. No one sits around plotting to have a 1-2 round playoff team. Either you're building towards something, or you're reached it and going to try to do something with it.

I can see the case for trading either guy, and it's certainly not cut and dried either way. Whatever else Anderson is, he is also the best goalie, hands down, we've had since at least Hasek, and is probably legitimately a top 3 goalie we've had in franchise history. Lehner has all the potential in the world, but he has done -- how to put this delicately -- absolutely nothing since the 2012 AHL championship. He has not progressed in spite of the many opportunities he's had to take the #1 spot, and what's worse, he's show some 'tude along the way, throwing his teammates under the bus at times when they lose and giving his Dmen the stink eye at other times when a puck deflects in in front of the net. We're not close enough to know it, but I would be very interested in hearing teammates off the record on the subject of Lehner, because I'm not entirely sure he'd be inside their top 2 in terms of goalies they'd want on their roster. And that matters a lot.

Honestly, for this team to be a contender, what's needed, after re-signing the guys we have now (i.e., Stone, Hoffman, Pageau, Chiasson, Zbad, maybe Condra), is 1 top 4 D and 1 top 6 forward. We will actually have some desirable pieces to move, too, to bring in 1-2 pieces via trade...  Cowen/a goalie/maybe Hoffman or Chiasson/Neil/Legwand/Gryba as potential trading pieces, plus picks etc., and you've got prolly one LTIR (Phillips) and one buyout/demotion (Greening). Or you make one trade for a forward and sign one UFA D. This is not an ambitious or pie in the sky plan. The 1 X factor is what's it going to take to re-sign Stone, Hoffman, and Zbad... Pageau, Chiasson, and Condra will not be pricey, but I could see longer, pricier deals for Stone especially and maybe Zbad.

As for the Budget... see below.

Good luck to you then.  If you honestly believe your suggestions will be enough for this team to be in the finals and win then I don't think I can say much to you.  Apparently it's all or nothing for you.  You're either a playoff team and you are making it to the final or you're not.  Not that cut and dried.  GMs say all the time that this is a playoff team or this is a team that can go deep or this is a team that can win a round or two or this is a cup contender.  It's not playoffs equals Stanley cup finals or you just don't make it at all.

This is a team that went 20-3-3 down the stretch to make the playoffs. Of course they're a contender and for real.

As for the definitional thing, find me one GM in the history of the league who ever said, "I'm building a team to make the playoffs and maybe win a round or two." No, you're rebuilding or you're contending, and any GM who watched this team for the last three months has got to think we've turned that corner. And yes, I think we are absolutely 1 top 4 D and 1 top 6 forward from being legit contenders. The only real force in the east is NYR, that's it -- otherwise, the conference is wide open, especially with PIT and BOS on the decline. Do I think this team, with those two additions, could compete with any team in the east excepting maybe NYR? Absolutely. The current version of the Sens would have given any team in the east a run for its money in a playoff series as it is.

I think your hopes for this team are more than a little off.  You're setting yourself up for a big dissapointment if you think the Sens are making the Conference Finals next season.

rooneypoo wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:

SpezDispensed wrote:Bottom line - where do people, must importantly our brass - see this team next year?  A contender?  A playoff team?  A fringe playoff team?  

If they truly think the time has come, you need to make some key acquisitions.  

This team should be a playoff team but, certainly not a contender.  Anderson absolutely should be traded now.  I agree with Ev.  It's interesting how everything is, what have you done for me lately.  Anderson has his annual injury vacation, is a head case and his value is right to trade him.  If you think the Sens brass are going to make enough acquisitions to make this team a cup contender you're dreaming in technicolour.  Some players will have set backs.  They are going to remain patient with this team and if that's the case this is not a Cup contender and is merely a playoff team that should win a round.

If you're a playoff team, then you're a contender, plain and simple. No one sits around plotting to have a 1-2 round playoff team. Either you're building towards something, or you're reached it and going to try to do something with it.

I can see the case for trading either guy, and it's certainly not cut and dried either way. Whatever else Anderson is, he is also the best goalie, hands down, we've had since at least Hasek, and is probably legitimately a top 3 goalie we've had in franchise history. Lehner has all the potential in the world, but he has done -- how to put this delicately -- absolutely nothing since the 2012 AHL championship. He has not progressed in spite of the many opportunities he's had to take the #1 spot, and what's worse, he's show some 'tude along the way, throwing his teammates under the bus at times when they lose and giving his Dmen the stink eye at other times when a puck deflects in in front of the net. We're not close enough to know it, but I would be very interested in hearing teammates off the record on the subject of Lehner, because I'm not entirely sure he'd be inside their top 2 in terms of goalies they'd want on their roster. And that matters a lot.

Honestly, for this team to be a contender, what's needed, after re-signing the guys we have now (i.e., Stone, Hoffman, Pageau, Chiasson, Zbad, maybe Condra), is 1 top 4 D and 1 top 6 forward. We will actually have some desirable pieces to move, too, to bring in 1-2 pieces via trade...  Cowen/a goalie/maybe Hoffman or Chiasson/Neil/Legwand/Gryba as potential trading pieces, plus picks etc., and you've got prolly one LTIR (Phillips) and one buyout/demotion (Greening). Or you make one trade for a forward and sign one UFA D. This is not an ambitious or pie in the sky plan. The 1 X factor is what's it going to take to re-sign Stone, Hoffman, and Zbad... Pageau, Chiasson, and Condra will not be pricey, but I could see longer, pricier deals for Stone especially and maybe Zbad.

As for the Budget... see below.

Good luck to you then.  If you honestly believe your suggestions will be enough for this team to be in the finals and win then I don't think I can say much to you.  Apparently it's all or nothing for you.  You're either a playoff team and you are making it to the final or you're not.  Not that cut and dried.  GMs say all the time that this is a playoff team or this is a team that can go deep or this is a team that can win a round or two or this is a cup contender.  It's not playoffs equals Stanley cup finals or you just don't make it at all.

This is a team that went 20-3-3 down the stretch to make the playoffs. Of course they're a contender and for real.

As for the definitional thing, find me one GM in the history of the league who ever said, "I'm building a team to make the playoffs and maybe win a round or two." No, you're rebuilding or you're contending, and any GM who watched this team for the last three months has got to think we've turned that corner. And yes, I think we are absolutely 1 top 4 D and 1 top 6 forward from being legit contenders. The only real force in the east is NYR, that's it -- otherwise, the conference is wide open, especially with PIT and BOS on the decline. Do I think this team, with those two additions, could compete with any team in the east excepting maybe NYR? Absolutely. The current version of the Sens would have given any team in the east a run for its money in a playoff series as it is.

I think your hopes for this team are more than a little off.  You're setting yourself up for a big dissapointment if you think the Sens are making the Conference Finals next season.

What are you talking about? Is STL any less of a contender because they bowed out in round 1? Or NYI? Of course not. By your definition of "contender," there are about 2 teams (CHI, NYR) who are "contenders", and even last year's champs aren't in the group. The definition is circular -- viz., you can be a contender if you haven't already been to the cup finals on multiple occasions. A contending team is one that has a legitimate shot of taking its conference, that's it. After NYR, what other team in the east seriously outclasses OTT? None.

SpezDispensed wrote:Watching our series, then watching the 2nd and 3rd of the Game 7 of the Isles and Caps, you need big dudes who can throw their weight around too.  Might need to get bigger up front.

wprager wrote:

SpezDispensed wrote:Watching our series, then watching the 2nd and 3rd of the Game 7 of the Isles and Caps, you need big dudes who can throw their weight around too.  Might need to get bigger up front.

There isn't a dude bigger or heavier in the league than the boards.  If you are quicker to the puck you can get out of the way and let them try to leave an impression.  It only works if you connect and get there before the breakout pass is made.  Other wise you are risking personal injury *and* an odd-man rush the other way.

Cap'n Clutch wrote:
In the east I can see Tampa, NYR ahead of Ottawa and I also think that NYI will take a step forward as well.  Washington, with Ovechkin playing well could and likely will be ahead of Ottawa as well.  

SpezDispensed wrote:We'll be taking a step forward as well though.  We're there with TB and the Isles IMO.  Depending on which goalie we choose.  

Cap'n Clutch wrote:

Hoags wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:Well, if they don't trade Anderson in the off season then do it before the trade deadline.  Lehner is capable of taking the job.  Sure, wait until he's recovered of course but, move Anderson after that.

Maybe at the deadline at the earliest.  Personally I think Lehner has a higher chance of being dealt than Andy.

If they sign O'Connor then someone is gone for sure before training camp.

You're willing to assume that O'Connor will be a stud goalie but not Lehner?  How old is O'Connor?  Do you think he'll be ready to step in when Anderson is no longer a viable starter?

Hoags wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:

Hoags wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:Well, if they don't trade Anderson in the off season then do it before the trade deadline.  Lehner is capable of taking the job.  Sure, wait until he's recovered of course but, move Anderson after that.

Maybe at the deadline at the earliest.  Personally I think Lehner has a higher chance of being dealt than Andy.

If they sign O'Connor then someone is gone for sure before training camp.

You're willing to assume that O'Connor will be a stud goalie but not Lehner?  How old is O'Connor?  Do you think he'll be ready to step in when Anderson is no longer a viable starter?

They're trying to sign o'Connor and told him we'd trade a goalie to make room.

Murray isn't the type of GM to trade someone not long after signing an extension.  He's loyal to a fault.

This is just what I think will happen.

Hoags wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:

Hoags wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:Well, if they don't trade Anderson in the off season then do it before the trade deadline.  Lehner is capable of taking the job.  Sure, wait until he's recovered of course but, move Anderson after that.

Maybe at the deadline at the earliest.  Personally I think Lehner has a higher chance of being dealt than Andy.

If they sign O'Connor then someone is gone for sure before training camp.

You're willing to assume that O'Connor will be a stud goalie but not Lehner?  How old is O'Connor?  Do you think he'll be ready to step in when Anderson is no longer a viable starter?

They're trying to sign o'Connor and told him we'd trade a goalie to make room.

Murray isn't the type of GM to trade someone not long after signing an extension.  He's loyal to a fault.

This is just what I think will happen.

rooneypoo wrote:

SpezDispensed wrote:We'll be taking a step forward as well though.  We're there with TB and the Isles IMO.  Depending on which goalie we choose.  

And what does that tell you? That we're a legitimate, contending team with a legitimate shot of making the final 4. Clutch is confusing elite near-dynasty teams with contenders. Playoff teams are contenders. Perennial final 4 teams are elite or dynasty teams, and they're rare and the exception.

Cap'n Clutch wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

SpezDispensed wrote:We'll be taking a step forward as well though.  We're there with TB and the Isles IMO.  Depending on which goalie we choose.  

And what does that tell you? That we're a legitimate, contending team with a legitimate shot of making the final 4. Clutch is confusing elite near-dynasty teams with contenders. Playoff teams are contenders. Perennial final 4 teams are elite or dynasty teams, and they're rare and the exception.

Based on the premis that we're right there with TB and the Isles?  I disagree with that premis personally so my point stands even based on your logic of what defines a contending team with a legit shot at the final 4.  At this point we're now just disagreeing on the premis.

DefenceWinsChampionships wrote:

Hoags wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:

Hoags wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:Well, if they don't trade Anderson in the off season then do it before the trade deadline.  Lehner is capable of taking the job.  Sure, wait until he's recovered of course but, move Anderson after that.

Maybe at the deadline at the earliest.  Personally I think Lehner has a higher chance of being dealt than Andy.

If they sign O'Connor then someone is gone for sure before training camp.

You're willing to assume that O'Connor will be a stud goalie but not Lehner?  How old is O'Connor?  Do you think he'll be ready to step in when Anderson is no longer a viable starter?

They're trying to sign o'Connor and told him we'd trade a goalie to make room.

Murray isn't the type of GM to trade someone not long after signing an extension.  He's loyal to a fault.

This is just what I think will happen.

Lehner is gone. He's had multiple chances to sieze his opportunities and has fallen flat on his face each time. Hammond was given one chance and dominated. Ya he's a few years older, but like you've been saying, Lehner isn't exactly the best teammate and seems to immature and reckless to lead this team. I understand his upside is still very high but I'm much more comfortable with Hammond than I am with Lehner, and think the team probably feels the same way.