The Expendables - Ottawa Edition

Cap'n Clutch wrote:I never said that team would be a contender.  I would move Anderson because they AREN'T contenders.  My point is that they're not going to make enough moves to make this team a contender and that they'll be patient with this group.  There's nothing to suggest Hoffman will repeat as a 27 plus goal scorer.  I think he's a paper tiger and you move him before people realize he's not for real.

rooneypoo wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:I never said that team would be a contender.  I would move Anderson because they AREN'T contenders.  My point is that they're not going to make enough moves to make this team a contender and that they'll be patient with this group.  There's nothing to suggest Hoffman will repeat as a 27 plus goal scorer.  I think he's a paper tiger and you move him before people realize he's not for real.

A playoff team = a contender. This team is a playoff team as it stands, something that isn't up for debate... making the playoffs makes you a playoff team, and making the playoffs makes you a contender.

The goalie thing could go either way, as I said, with Lehner's future very much up in the air. As for Hoffman, I view him as either someone you trade now, or someone you sign to a very short deal to see what we have.

Cap'n Clutch wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:

SpezDispensed wrote:Bottom line - where do people, must importantly our brass - see this team next year?  A contender?  A playoff team?  A fringe playoff team?  

If they truly think the time has come, you need to make some key acquisitions.  

This team should be a playoff team but, certainly not a contender.  Anderson absolutely should be traded now.  I agree with Ev.  It's interesting how everything is, what have you done for me lately.  Anderson has his annual injury vacation, is a head case and his value is right to trade him.  If you think the Sens brass are going to make enough acquisitions to make this team a cup contender you're dreaming in technicolour.  Some players will have set backs.  They are going to remain patient with this team and if that's the case this is not a Cup contender and is merely a playoff team that should win a round.

If you're a playoff team, then you're a contender, plain and simple. No one sits around plotting to have a 1-2 round playoff team. Either you're building towards something, or you're reached it and going to try to do something with it.

I can see the case for trading either guy, and it's certainly not cut and dried either way. Whatever else Anderson is, he is also the best goalie, hands down, we've had since at least Hasek, and is probably legitimately a top 3 goalie we've had in franchise history. Lehner has all the potential in the world, but he has done -- how to put this delicately -- absolutely nothing since the 2012 AHL championship. He has not progressed in spite of the many opportunities he's had to take the #1 spot, and what's worse, he's show some 'tude along the way, throwing his teammates under the bus at times when they lose and giving his Dmen the stink eye at other times when a puck deflects in in front of the net. We're not close enough to know it, but I would be very interested in hearing teammates off the record on the subject of Lehner, because I'm not entirely sure he'd be inside their top 2 in terms of goalies they'd want on their roster. And that matters a lot.

Honestly, for this team to be a contender, what's needed, after re-signing the guys we have now (i.e., Stone, Hoffman, Pageau, Chiasson, Zbad, maybe Condra), is 1 top 4 D and 1 top 6 forward. We will actually have some desirable pieces to move, too, to bring in 1-2 pieces via trade...  Cowen/a goalie/maybe Hoffman or Chiasson/Neil/Legwand/Gryba as potential trading pieces, plus picks etc., and you've got prolly one LTIR (Phillips) and one buyout/demotion (Greening). Or you make one trade for a forward and sign one UFA D. This is not an ambitious or pie in the sky plan. The 1 X factor is what's it going to take to re-sign Stone, Hoffman, and Zbad... Pageau, Chiasson, and Condra will not be pricey, but I could see longer, pricier deals for Stone especially and maybe Zbad.

As for the Budget... see below.

Good luck to you then.  If you honestly believe your suggestions will be enough for this team to be in the finals and win then I don't think I can say much to you.  Apparently it's all or nothing for you.  You're either a playoff team and you are making it to the final or you're not.  Not that cut and dried.  GMs say all the time that this is a playoff team or this is a team that can go deep or this is a team that can win a round or two or this is a cup contender.  It's not playoffs equals Stanley cup finals or you just don't make it at all.

rooneypoo wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:

SpezDispensed wrote:Bottom line - where do people, must importantly our brass - see this team next year?  A contender?  A playoff team?  A fringe playoff team?  

If they truly think the time has come, you need to make some key acquisitions.  

This team should be a playoff team but, certainly not a contender.  Anderson absolutely should be traded now.  I agree with Ev.  It's interesting how everything is, what have you done for me lately.  Anderson has his annual injury vacation, is a head case and his value is right to trade him.  If you think the Sens brass are going to make enough acquisitions to make this team a cup contender you're dreaming in technicolour.  Some players will have set backs.  They are going to remain patient with this team and if that's the case this is not a Cup contender and is merely a playoff team that should win a round.

If you're a playoff team, then you're a contender, plain and simple. No one sits around plotting to have a 1-2 round playoff team. Either you're building towards something, or you're reached it and going to try to do something with it.

I can see the case for trading either guy, and it's certainly not cut and dried either way. Whatever else Anderson is, he is also the best goalie, hands down, we've had since at least Hasek, and is probably legitimately a top 3 goalie we've had in franchise history. Lehner has all the potential in the world, but he has done -- how to put this delicately -- absolutely nothing since the 2012 AHL championship. He has not progressed in spite of the many opportunities he's had to take the #1 spot, and what's worse, he's show some 'tude along the way, throwing his teammates under the bus at times when they lose and giving his Dmen the stink eye at other times when a puck deflects in in front of the net. We're not close enough to know it, but I would be very interested in hearing teammates off the record on the subject of Lehner, because I'm not entirely sure he'd be inside their top 2 in terms of goalies they'd want on their roster. And that matters a lot.

Honestly, for this team to be a contender, what's needed, after re-signing the guys we have now (i.e., Stone, Hoffman, Pageau, Chiasson, Zbad, maybe Condra), is 1 top 4 D and 1 top 6 forward. We will actually have some desirable pieces to move, too, to bring in 1-2 pieces via trade...  Cowen/a goalie/maybe Hoffman or Chiasson/Neil/Legwand/Gryba as potential trading pieces, plus picks etc., and you've got prolly one LTIR (Phillips) and one buyout/demotion (Greening). Or you make one trade for a forward and sign one UFA D. This is not an ambitious or pie in the sky plan. The 1 X factor is what's it going to take to re-sign Stone, Hoffman, and Zbad... Pageau, Chiasson, and Condra will not be pricey, but I could see longer, pricier deals for Stone especially and maybe Zbad.

As for the Budget... see below.

Good luck to you then.  If you honestly believe your suggestions will be enough for this team to be in the finals and win then I don't think I can say much to you.  Apparently it's all or nothing for you.  You're either a playoff team and you are making it to the final or you're not.  Not that cut and dried.  GMs say all the time that this is a playoff team or this is a team that can go deep or this is a team that can win a round or two or this is a cup contender.  It's not playoffs equals Stanley cup finals or you just don't make it at all.

This is a team that went 20-3-3 down the stretch to make the playoffs. Of course they're a contender and for real.

As for the definitional thing, find me one GM in the history of the league who ever said, "I'm building a team to make the playoffs and maybe win a round or two." No, you're rebuilding or you're contending, and any GM who watched this team for the last three months has got to think we've turned that corner. And yes, I think we are absolutely 1 top 4 D and 1 top 6 forward from being legit contenders. The only real force in the east is NYR, that's it -- otherwise, the conference is wide open, especially with PIT and BOS on the decline. Do I think this team, with those two additions, could compete with any team in the east excepting maybe NYR? Absolutely. The current version of the Sens would have given any team in the east a run for its money in a playoff series as it is.

Cap'n Clutch wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:I never said that team would be a contender.  I would move Anderson because they AREN'T contenders.  My point is that they're not going to make enough moves to make this team a contender and that they'll be patient with this group.  There's nothing to suggest Hoffman will repeat as a 27 plus goal scorer.  I think he's a paper tiger and you move him before people realize he's not for real.

A playoff team = a contender. This team is a playoff team as it stands, something that isn't up for debate... making the playoffs makes you a playoff team, and making the playoffs makes you a contender.

The goalie thing could go either way, as I said, with Lehner's future very much up in the air. As for Hoffman, I view him as either someone you trade now, or someone you sign to a very short deal to see what we have.

My view has some shades of grey in there and, when I hear or see the word contender I think Stanley Cup contender and by that I mean a team with a real and legitimate shot at being in the final outside of the simple fact that they're one of the 16 teams remaining and ANYTHING can happen.

I personally see that there are playoff teams - ones that can make it but won't do much

Teams that can go a round or two

Teams that can go deep

And finally teams that should make the finals.

Ev wrote:

SpezDispensed wrote:

Ev wrote:

SpezDispensed wrote:This is how I envision the lineup:

MacArthur - Turris - Stone
Hoffman - Zibanejad - Ryan
Puempel  - Pageau - lazar
Michalek - smith - Neil
Chiasson

I think Condra gets an offer he can't refuse in free agency.  Which sucks because he's been fantastic under Cameron.  

Methot - Karlsson
Wiercioch - ?????
Boro - Ceci

Cowen traded, Phillips sits, Gryba the depth 7th guy.  That hole on the right side is very, very important.  Need to fill it with a big player.

Anderson
Hammond

With the proviso that we sign o'connor, Lehner is traded.  I'm sorry, but I can't see any scenario where you trade Anderson right now.  

They're a budget team who needs to choose between one of the goalies. It makes sense to trade the declining asset who makes more money + is injury prone, in my opinion.

Before this round nobody even remembered Andy existed. He went 2-2 in the playoffs.

I agree, but for the 3rd straight time Anderson came in and dominated in the playoffs.   That's 3 straight times now where he's taken on the best if the best and gone toe to toe with them.  Plus, that 2-2 record I odd because he lost 2-1 and 1-0.  Can't win without scoring.

I have confidence in Lehner if they go that way.  The dude is young, super athletic, had worker, but so far he's just not as good as Anderson.  It's a strange scenario for sure.

Maybe you roll with the two of them and see where you're at at the deadline or next off season. Not sure.

That's my point though. He played very well but they still have lost 3 out of 4 series with Anderson. You could get slightly worse goaltending but have improved offense + defense. Great teams don't need to rely on a goalie playing over his head

Cap'n Clutch wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:I never said that team would be a contender.  I would move Anderson because they AREN'T contenders.  My point is that they're not going to make enough moves to make this team a contender and that they'll be patient with this group.  There's nothing to suggest Hoffman will repeat as a 27 plus goal scorer.  I think he's a paper tiger and you move him before people realize he's not for real.

A playoff team = a contender. This team is a playoff team as it stands, something that isn't up for debate... making the playoffs makes you a playoff team, and making the playoffs makes you a contender.

The goalie thing could go either way, as I said, with Lehner's future very much up in the air. As for Hoffman, I view him as either someone you trade now, or someone you sign to a very short deal to see what we have.

My view has some shades of grey in there and, when I hear or see the word contender I think Stanley Cup contender and by that I mean a team with a real and legitimate shot at being in the final outside of the simple fact that they're one of the 16 teams remaining and ANYTHING can happen.

I personally see that there are playoff teams - ones that can make it but won't do much

Teams that can go a round or two

Teams that can go deep

And finally teams that should make the finals.

SpezDispensed wrote:

Ev wrote:

SpezDispensed wrote:

Ev wrote:

SpezDispensed wrote:This is how I envision the lineup:

MacArthur - Turris - Stone
Hoffman - Zibanejad - Ryan
Puempel  - Pageau - lazar
Michalek - smith - Neil
Chiasson

I think Condra gets an offer he can't refuse in free agency.  Which sucks because he's been fantastic under Cameron.  

Methot - Karlsson
Wiercioch - ?????
Boro - Ceci

Cowen traded, Phillips sits, Gryba the depth 7th guy.  That hole on the right side is very, very important.  Need to fill it with a big player.

Anderson
Hammond

With the proviso that we sign o'connor, Lehner is traded.  I'm sorry, but I can't see any scenario where you trade Anderson right now.  

They're a budget team who needs to choose between one of the goalies. It makes sense to trade the declining asset who makes more money + is injury prone, in my opinion.

Before this round nobody even remembered Andy existed. He went 2-2 in the playoffs.

I agree, but for the 3rd straight time Anderson came in and dominated in the playoffs.   That's 3 straight times now where he's taken on the best if the best and gone toe to toe with them.  Plus, that 2-2 record I odd because he lost 2-1 and 1-0.  Can't win without scoring.

I have confidence in Lehner if they go that way.  The dude is young, super athletic, had worker, but so far he's just not as good as Anderson.  It's a strange scenario for sure.

Maybe you roll with the two of them and see where you're at at the deadline or next off season. Not sure.

That's my point though. He played very well but they still have lost 3 out of 4 series with Anderson. You could get slightly worse goaltending but have improved offense + defense. Great teams don't need to rely on a goalie playing over his head

Agreed again, but is Anderson gonna bring you in that extra offense or defence via trade?  I doubt it, so at this point it's about getting those pieces then starting your best goalie to win, I would imagine.  I'm as on the fence on the goaltending situation as anyone though, I don't really think you need a top tiered netminder, but you need gamebreaker who can make a big difference in playoff games.  

SeawaySensFan wrote:

SpezDispensed wrote:

Ev wrote:

SpezDispensed wrote:

Ev wrote:

SpezDispensed wrote:This is how I envision the lineup:

MacArthur - Turris - Stone
Hoffman - Zibanejad - Ryan
Puempel  - Pageau - lazar
Michalek - smith - Neil
Chiasson

I think Condra gets an offer he can't refuse in free agency.  Which sucks because he's been fantastic under Cameron.  

Methot - Karlsson
Wiercioch - ?????
Boro - Ceci

Cowen traded, Phillips sits, Gryba the depth 7th guy.  That hole on the right side is very, very important.  Need to fill it with a big player.

Anderson
Hammond

With the proviso that we sign o'connor, Lehner is traded.  I'm sorry, but I can't see any scenario where you trade Anderson right now.  

They're a budget team who needs to choose between one of the goalies. It makes sense to trade the declining asset who makes more money + is injury prone, in my opinion.

Before this round nobody even remembered Andy existed. He went 2-2 in the playoffs.

I agree, but for the 3rd straight time Anderson came in and dominated in the playoffs.   That's 3 straight times now where he's taken on the best if the best and gone toe to toe with them.  Plus, that 2-2 record I odd because he lost 2-1 and 1-0.  Can't win without scoring.

I have confidence in Lehner if they go that way.  The dude is young, super athletic, had worker, but so far he's just not as good as Anderson.  It's a strange scenario for sure.

Maybe you roll with the two of them and see where you're at at the deadline or next off season. Not sure.

That's my point though. He played very well but they still have lost 3 out of 4 series with Anderson. You could get slightly worse goaltending but have improved offense + defense. Great teams don't need to rely on a goalie playing over his head

Agreed again, but is Anderson gonna bring you in that extra offense or defence via trade?  I doubt it, so at this point it's about getting those pieces then starting your best goalie to win, I would imagine.  I'm as on the fence on the goaltending situation as anyone though, I don't really think you need a top tiered netminder, but you need gamebreaker who can make a big difference in playoff games.  

As part of a package I don't see how it can't bring something of substance in return. I don't see, either, how a guy like Jay Bouwmeester might not come back to Ottawa in a trade with STL. You can't rule out anything,

Cap'n Clutch wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:

SpezDispensed wrote:Bottom line - where do people, must importantly our brass - see this team next year?  A contender?  A playoff team?  A fringe playoff team?  

If they truly think the time has come, you need to make some key acquisitions.  

This team should be a playoff team but, certainly not a contender.  Anderson absolutely should be traded now.  I agree with Ev.  It's interesting how everything is, what have you done for me lately.  Anderson has his annual injury vacation, is a head case and his value is right to trade him.  If you think the Sens brass are going to make enough acquisitions to make this team a cup contender you're dreaming in technicolour.  Some players will have set backs.  They are going to remain patient with this team and if that's the case this is not a Cup contender and is merely a playoff team that should win a round.

If you're a playoff team, then you're a contender, plain and simple. No one sits around plotting to have a 1-2 round playoff team. Either you're building towards something, or you're reached it and going to try to do something with it.

I can see the case for trading either guy, and it's certainly not cut and dried either way. Whatever else Anderson is, he is also the best goalie, hands down, we've had since at least Hasek, and is probably legitimately a top 3 goalie we've had in franchise history. Lehner has all the potential in the world, but he has done -- how to put this delicately -- absolutely nothing since the 2012 AHL championship. He has not progressed in spite of the many opportunities he's had to take the #1 spot, and what's worse, he's show some 'tude along the way, throwing his teammates under the bus at times when they lose and giving his Dmen the stink eye at other times when a puck deflects in in front of the net. We're not close enough to know it, but I would be very interested in hearing teammates off the record on the subject of Lehner, because I'm not entirely sure he'd be inside their top 2 in terms of goalies they'd want on their roster. And that matters a lot.

Honestly, for this team to be a contender, what's needed, after re-signing the guys we have now (i.e., Stone, Hoffman, Pageau, Chiasson, Zbad, maybe Condra), is 1 top 4 D and 1 top 6 forward. We will actually have some desirable pieces to move, too, to bring in 1-2 pieces via trade...  Cowen/a goalie/maybe Hoffman or Chiasson/Neil/Legwand/Gryba as potential trading pieces, plus picks etc., and you've got prolly one LTIR (Phillips) and one buyout/demotion (Greening). Or you make one trade for a forward and sign one UFA D. This is not an ambitious or pie in the sky plan. The 1 X factor is what's it going to take to re-sign Stone, Hoffman, and Zbad... Pageau, Chiasson, and Condra will not be pricey, but I could see longer, pricier deals for Stone especially and maybe Zbad.

As for the Budget... see below.

Good luck to you then.  If you honestly believe your suggestions will be enough for this team to be in the finals and win then I don't think I can say much to you.  Apparently it's all or nothing for you.  You're either a playoff team and you are making it to the final or you're not.  Not that cut and dried.  GMs say all the time that this is a playoff team or this is a team that can go deep or this is a team that can win a round or two or this is a cup contender.  It's not playoffs equals Stanley cup finals or you just don't make it at all.

This is a team that went 20-3-3 down the stretch to make the playoffs. Of course they're a contender and for real.

As for the definitional thing, find me one GM in the history of the league who ever said, "I'm building a team to make the playoffs and maybe win a round or two." No, you're rebuilding or you're contending, and any GM who watched this team for the last three months has got to think we've turned that corner. And yes, I think we are absolutely 1 top 4 D and 1 top 6 forward from being legit contenders. The only real force in the east is NYR, that's it -- otherwise, the conference is wide open, especially with PIT and BOS on the decline. Do I think this team, with those two additions, could compete with any team in the east excepting maybe NYR? Absolutely. The current version of the Sens would have given any team in the east a run for its money in a playoff series as it is.

I think your hopes for this team are more than a little off.  You're setting yourself up for a big dissapointment if you think the Sens are making the Conference Finals next season.

rooneypoo wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:

SpezDispensed wrote:Bottom line - where do people, must importantly our brass - see this team next year?  A contender?  A playoff team?  A fringe playoff team?  

If they truly think the time has come, you need to make some key acquisitions.  

This team should be a playoff team but, certainly not a contender.  Anderson absolutely should be traded now.  I agree with Ev.  It's interesting how everything is, what have you done for me lately.  Anderson has his annual injury vacation, is a head case and his value is right to trade him.  If you think the Sens brass are going to make enough acquisitions to make this team a cup contender you're dreaming in technicolour.  Some players will have set backs.  They are going to remain patient with this team and if that's the case this is not a Cup contender and is merely a playoff team that should win a round.

If you're a playoff team, then you're a contender, plain and simple. No one sits around plotting to have a 1-2 round playoff team. Either you're building towards something, or you're reached it and going to try to do something with it.

I can see the case for trading either guy, and it's certainly not cut and dried either way. Whatever else Anderson is, he is also the best goalie, hands down, we've had since at least Hasek, and is probably legitimately a top 3 goalie we've had in franchise history. Lehner has all the potential in the world, but he has done -- how to put this delicately -- absolutely nothing since the 2012 AHL championship. He has not progressed in spite of the many opportunities he's had to take the #1 spot, and what's worse, he's show some 'tude along the way, throwing his teammates under the bus at times when they lose and giving his Dmen the stink eye at other times when a puck deflects in in front of the net. We're not close enough to know it, but I would be very interested in hearing teammates off the record on the subject of Lehner, because I'm not entirely sure he'd be inside their top 2 in terms of goalies they'd want on their roster. And that matters a lot.

Honestly, for this team to be a contender, what's needed, after re-signing the guys we have now (i.e., Stone, Hoffman, Pageau, Chiasson, Zbad, maybe Condra), is 1 top 4 D and 1 top 6 forward. We will actually have some desirable pieces to move, too, to bring in 1-2 pieces via trade...  Cowen/a goalie/maybe Hoffman or Chiasson/Neil/Legwand/Gryba as potential trading pieces, plus picks etc., and you've got prolly one LTIR (Phillips) and one buyout/demotion (Greening). Or you make one trade for a forward and sign one UFA D. This is not an ambitious or pie in the sky plan. The 1 X factor is what's it going to take to re-sign Stone, Hoffman, and Zbad... Pageau, Chiasson, and Condra will not be pricey, but I could see longer, pricier deals for Stone especially and maybe Zbad.

As for the Budget... see below.

Good luck to you then.  If you honestly believe your suggestions will be enough for this team to be in the finals and win then I don't think I can say much to you.  Apparently it's all or nothing for you.  You're either a playoff team and you are making it to the final or you're not.  Not that cut and dried.  GMs say all the time that this is a playoff team or this is a team that can go deep or this is a team that can win a round or two or this is a cup contender.  It's not playoffs equals Stanley cup finals or you just don't make it at all.

This is a team that went 20-3-3 down the stretch to make the playoffs. Of course they're a contender and for real.

As for the definitional thing, find me one GM in the history of the league who ever said, "I'm building a team to make the playoffs and maybe win a round or two." No, you're rebuilding or you're contending, and any GM who watched this team for the last three months has got to think we've turned that corner. And yes, I think we are absolutely 1 top 4 D and 1 top 6 forward from being legit contenders. The only real force in the east is NYR, that's it -- otherwise, the conference is wide open, especially with PIT and BOS on the decline. Do I think this team, with those two additions, could compete with any team in the east excepting maybe NYR? Absolutely. The current version of the Sens would have given any team in the east a run for its money in a playoff series as it is.

I think your hopes for this team are more than a little off.  You're setting yourself up for a big dissapointment if you think the Sens are making the Conference Finals next season.

What are you talking about? Is STL any less of a contender because they bowed out in round 1? Or NYI? Of course not. By your definition of "contender," there are about 2 teams (CHI, NYR) who are "contenders", and even last year's champs aren't in the group. The definition is circular -- viz., you can be a contender if you haven't already been to the cup finals on multiple occasions. A contending team is one that has a legitimate shot of taking its conference, that's it. After NYR, what other team in the east seriously outclasses OTT? None.