Game Day - Rangers @ Ottawa, 7:30PM, Wednesday, Movember 9, 2011

Peggy wrote:CJam13 on HFBoards is the biggest douche out of all Sens fans.

He had a different username before .... mind you he's in good company there.

Peggy wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

NEELY wrote:I agree with everythign there ROoney but I wouldn't compare Spezza and Kovalev either... just a really wrong approch to the discussion, people get their backs up right away.

Meh, there are guys here who will defend Spezza until the end, & swear that black is white & up is down for him. Those same people are going to get their backs up the moment I tell them Spezza doesn't Dung gold or barf up happy meals.

I'm just using Kovalev as a shorthand for an apathetic, disengaged, inconsistent forward. And that's what Spezza has looked like since Alfie went down, when it was, precisely, his moment to step up. The only people not seeing that are the people I describe above.

I think that's just one guy though. Wprager.

I am *not* a Spezza apologist. He is *not* my favorite player on the Sens, and he never was. I just don't like to always compare players relative to their salaries. Murray is the one who gave him the $7M contract and he knew better than anyone, at the time, what kind of player he was.

wprager wrote:

Peggy wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

NEELY wrote:I agree with everythign there ROoney but I wouldn't compare Spezza and Kovalev either... just a really wrong approch to the discussion, people get their backs up right away.

Meh, there are guys here who will defend Spezza until the end, & swear that black is white & up is down for him. Those same people are going to get their backs up the moment I tell them Spezza doesn't Dung gold or barf up happy meals.

I'm just using Kovalev as a shorthand for an apathetic, disengaged, inconsistent forward. And that's what Spezza has looked like since Alfie went down, when it was, precisely, his moment to step up. The only people not seeing that are the people I describe above.

I think that's just one guy though. Wprager.

I am *not* a Spezza apologist. He is *not* my favorite player on the Sens, and he never was. I just don't like to always compare players relative to their salaries. Murray is the one who gave him the $7M contract and he knew better than anyone, at the time, what kind of player he was.

Is it the same reason why Murray has tried to trade him a number of times?

Hoags wrote:

Peggy wrote:CJam13 on HFBoards is the biggest douche out of all Sens fans.

He had a different username before .... mind you he's in good company there.

I can't even remember it now. what was it before? He's always a douche though. Changes his avatar to whoever's nuts he is on that particular day. Just a huger homer.

NEELY wrote:
He wasn't "bad". He was how I like to say "meh". He isn't paid to be "not bad" or "meh". He's paid like the teams best player and I would say in pretty close to 80-90% of the games he was no where near it. Is it any wonder now that teams are focusing on the points on the PP and paying attention to both Gonchar and Karlsson his points have dried up?

Teams focus on them because most of our PP goals are shots from the point, which are either deflected or on a rebound.

Gonchar and Karlsson will also cough up the puck under any sort of forecheck so they are easy targets. Rundblad as well, we all saw the game.

Spezza is what he is, I can't believe we still have this debate. Stop holding him to his salary cap hit. He's a playmaker first and foremost and he's only as good as his wingers. If they make space for him and draw defenders away he can do his thing. I also think it's a bit unfair to imply he doesn't care, he looks worse when he tries to do too much on his own, he's best when he does what he's best at.

I'd say Neely is correct (except the Kovalev thing) but I think hating on a player that he's not something you want him to be seems like a waste of energy to me personally.

Hoags wrote:

NEELY wrote:
He wasn't "bad". He was how I like to say "meh". He isn't paid to be "not bad" or "meh". He's paid like the teams best player and I would say in pretty close to 80-90% of the games he was no where near it. Is it any wonder now that teams are focusing on the points on the PP and paying attention to both Gonchar and Karlsson his points have dried up?

Teams focus on them because most of our PP goals are shots from the point, which are either deflected or on a rebound.

Gonchar and Karlsson will also cough up the puck under any sort of forecheck so they are easy targets. Rundblad as well, we all saw the game.

Spezza is what he is, I can't believe we still have this debate. Stop holding him to his salary cap hit. He's a playmaker first and foremost and he's only as good as his wingers. If they make space for him and draw defenders away he can do his thing. I also think it's a bit unfair to imply he doesn't care, he looks worse when he tries to do too much on his own, he's best when he does what he's best at.

I'd say Neely is correct (except the Kovalev thing) but I think hating on a player that he's not something you want him to be seems like a waste of energy to me personally.

I haven't brought it up actually. I simply said he is expected to be the teams best player but he clearly isn't. I also didn't bring up the Kovalev thing and said that's not a fair comparisson at all.

His winger is in the top 5 on goals but Spezza is still struggling. They also have taken a ton of defensiv responsibility away from him and are not asking a ton from him besides to produce offense. He isn't right now.

The truth about Spezza is he is too slow to be consistant and if the shots are not getting through from the point, he's in trouble on the production line.

NEELY wrote:
I disagree 100%. Believe it or not it's kind of easy to pick it out too.

You're just sad. Good thing I don't need confirmation from strangers like you do.

wprager wrote:

NEELY wrote:
I disagree 100%. Believe it or not it's kind of easy to pick it out too.

You're just sad. Good thing I don't need confirmation from strangers like you do.

You absolutley do not.

NEELY wrote:
I haven't brought it up actually. I simply said he is expected to be the teams best player but he clearly isn't. I also didn't bring up the Kovalev thing and said that's not a fair comparisson at all.

His winger is in the top 5 on goals but Spezza is still struggling. They also have taken a ton of defensiv responsibility away from him and are not asking a ton from him besides to produce offense. He isn't right now.

The truth about Spezza is he is too slow to be consistant and if the shots are not getting through from the point, he's in trouble on the production line.

He is paid to play at the level we know he is capable to play at, for our sake there better be other players who are better if we're going to get anywhere. We badly need a real #2C (or an ever better #1C and bump #19 down to #2) to take the focus off him. A dangerous second line would greatly help as well.

Spezza's an opportunistic player, he doesn't create offense successfully unless the other team screws up or one of his teammates does something.

Hoags wrote:

NEELY wrote:
I haven't brought it up actually. I simply said he is expected to be the teams best player but he clearly isn't. I also didn't bring up the Kovalev thing and said that's not a fair comparisson at all.

His winger is in the top 5 on goals but Spezza is still struggling. They also have taken a ton of defensiv responsibility away from him and are not asking a ton from him besides to produce offense. He isn't right now.

The truth about Spezza is he is too slow to be consistant and if the shots are not getting through from the point, he's in trouble on the production line.

He is paid to play at the level we know he is capable to play at, for our sake there better be other players who are better if we're going to get anywhere. We badly need a real #2C (or an ever better #1C and bump #19 down to #2) to take the focus off him. A dangerous second line would greatly help as well.

Spezza's an opportunistic player, he doesn't create offense successfully unless the other team screws up or one of his teammates does something.

That's perfect. Exactly how to describe him.

NEELY wrote:
That's perfect. Exactly how to describe him.

Nothing really wrong with that, Spezza can do things with such opportunities that not many others can. That's why he gets paid the big bucks but obviously the planets cannot align for him all the time.

Instead of demanding Spezza do something he's not capable of doing, we either need more effective winger(s) for him (unlikely) or try and build an effective second line so that our game plan doesn't revolve around Spezza.

I'd say the second option is more likely, with Da Costa, Filatov etc. we've got some interesting possibilities for the future.

However we're kind of SOL right now.

Hoags wrote:
I'd say Neely is correct (except the Kovalev thing) but I think hating on a player that he's not something you want him to be seems like a waste of energy to me personally.

Exactly. I could go back and find literally 10 posts where I have said: he is what he is. He's very talented and can really help a team in the offense category, but he simply doesn't have it in him to play that great, 2-way game that we saw at the end of last year.

Is that a good thing? No, not really, it's actually very dangerous to a team this void of scoring talent because we depend on him, HOWEVER, there will be a time - soon enough hopefully, when the team is build with Spezza as a 2nd line C - or perhaps he stays as top line C, but he has a truly talented, powerful 2nd line C behind him. So the team isn't build around Spezza, it caters to the fact that he doesn't have "it", that X factor that makes guys like Toews, Kesler (I guess) etc. have that make them winners. The combination of talent and drive and grit.

It's really not the end of the world that Spezza doesn't have the X factor...people need to accept that he's not Jonathan Toews or even Matt Duchene, big deal, he still can be an offensive threat, particularly if Murray continues to build the team properly and we have a powerful 2nd line behind him - because as it is now, he's fighting an uphill battle. He has talent, but not necessarily the will/strength to fight through the constant checking he receives.

Let me ask people here: if you were coach of another team, what line would you pay the most attention to?

If it was me, I'd basically smother Spezza's line with my best checkers, best D-men, whatever I could throw out at him and Michalek. If someone's gonna beat me on that line, I want it to be the rookie. If Da Costa's line beats me, so be it. That's the chance I'll take. If Z.Smith beats me, so be it again, I'll take that chance, but the gameplan is to NOT let Spezza's line beat me. That's where 90% of the scoring talent is.

Dare to dream.... Michalek - Spezza - Nash

SpezDispenser wrote:

Hoags wrote:
I'd say Neely is correct (except the Kovalev thing) but I think hating on a player that he's not something you want him to be seems like a waste of energy to me personally.

Exactly. I could go back and find literally 10 posts where I have said: he is what he is. He's very talented and can really help a team in the offense category, but he simply doesn't have it in him to play that great, 2-way game that we saw at the end of last year.

Is that a good thing? No, not really, it's actually very dangerous to a team this void of scoring talent because we depend on him, HOWEVER, there will be a time - soon enough hopefully, when the team is build with Spezza as a 2nd line C - or perhaps he stays as top line C, but he has a truly talented, powerful 2nd line C behind him. So the team isn't build around Spezza, it caters to the fact that he doesn't have "it", that X factor that makes guys like Toews, Kesler (I guess) etc. have that make them winners. The combination of talent and drive and grit.

It's really not the end of the world that Spezza doesn't have the X factor...people need to accept that he's not Jonathan Toews or even Matt Duchene, big deal, he still can be an offensive threat, particularly if Murray continues to build the team properly and we have a powerful 2nd line behind him - because as it is now, he's fighting an uphill battle. He has talent, but not necessarily the will/strength to fight through the constant checking he receives.

Let me ask people here: if you were coach of another team, what line would you pay the most attention to?
If it was me, I'd basically smother Spezza's line with my best checkers, best D-men, whatever I could throw out at him and Michalek. If someone's gonna beat me on that line, I want it to be the rookie. If Da Costa's line beats me, so be it. That's the chance I'll take. If Z.Smith beats me, so be it again, I'll take that chance, but the gameplan is to NOT let Spezza's line beat me. That's where 90% of the scoring talent is.

It's not even a question. That said, the PP has looked awful too and Spezza/Michalek keep making mistakes at the blueline. Thats where the money points come for the most part and unlike the Sens PK, it's going the other way.

NEELY wrote:It's not even a question. That said, the PP has looked awful too and Spezza/Michalek keep making mistakes at the blueline. Thats where the money points come for the most part and unlike the Sens PK, it's going the other way.

Again though, I have a man-crush on Greening, but he's not the guy to be top line PP. And Karlsson is another full year away from being absolutely disgusting on the point. Right now, he's just really, really good, but soon his decisions on the blueline to shoot or pass will be even sharper - and that helps everyone. Gonchar has taken a step back as well on the point - still making sharp plays, but not quite how he was in the 9 point streak or whatever he had.

This is where Alfie probably means the most to us right now, not only 5 on 5, but calming the PP down when it gets frantic.

Spoke to Cyril Leeder at the game and asked him about getting the new scoreboard in time for the All Star game. He said "It's not a dead deal yet. We're trying. We'd like to have it by then."

Somebody tell me why we're paying Spezza $7M? He was horrawful last night, and has been for the last 4 games. Getting a little sick of this jekyl and hide business from spezza. Anyone notice how Michalek got put on a line with DaCosta? A kid with like 20 games of NHL experience was outplaying spezza. That's sad.

DaCosta created so much space last night. Spezza's not moving his feet at all....just trying to stickhandle around everything.

SpezDispenser wrote:

NEELY wrote:It's not even a question. That said, the PP has looked awful too and Spezza/Michalek keep making mistakes at the blueline. Thats where the money points come for the most part and unlike the Sens PK, it's going the other way.

Again though, I have a man-crush on Greening, but he's not the guy to be top line PP. And Karlsson is another full year away from being absolutely disgusting on the point. Right now, he's just really, really good, but soon his decisions on the blueline to shoot or pass will be even sharper - and that helps everyone. Gonchar has taken a step back as well on the point - still making sharp plays, but not quite how he was in the 9 point streak or whatever he had.

This is where Alfie probably means the most to us right now, not only 5 on 5, but calming the PP down when it gets frantic.

Greening is the perfect player to have out their on the PP. He gets into the corners, gets in front of the net, makes life tough. It opens up a lot of space down low but someone actually has to do something with the puck when they are there.