Would you trade these guys all in one package?

N4L wrote:

RobbyJ wrote:

Dash wrote:

RobbyJ wrote:I think the 1st overall pick can be had out of Edmonton. That team needs to improve now, not 3 years from now. How much value does Spezza have to the Oilers, only they know, but it has been speculated that he was almost an Oiler 2 years ago. We would need to take salary back (Souray, Horcoff ugh or Penner). Give Gagner and the 1st overall along with either Souray or Penner and I'd give up Spezza and Foligno with Lee as a throw in.

I disagree. Most teams want a younger, cheaper player. They can use the $4M they would save and re-sign all their RFAs.

Edmonton needs playoffs more than cap space. Great fanbase but they will grow impatient.

I think that draft pic is A) unmoveable from Edmonton and the fans know exactly what is going on. They want the rebuild. B) over rated, I dont think Seguin or Hall will be the best players out of this draft. They will be nice players but there is more potential elsewhere IMO. C) Will cost too much. A 4th or 5th and the way Murray drafts may just indeed be as valuable, maybe more so depending on what he does with it, then that 1st round with the package he could potentially get.

One more aspect to look at from Murray/Melnyk's view, is that the Ottawa fan base (in general, not on this site) is quite fickle. Spezza may annoy die hard hockey fans, but the average ticket buying fan loves him. If you move him there has to be a buzz with the return, ie. Taylor Hall, or else any season ticket momentum will be lost as quickly as it came. Unfortunately not all fans saw the Karlsson pick like we did. This is still a young NHL market and we need stars as much as a Columbus or Atlanta does. Just a different perspective to think about.

If Columbus makes a deal for Spezza, Brassard is 100% coming the other way, at that point they add 4 million. That is a team at a cross roads right now and they need to do something to get the fan base excitted. The west isnt getting any easier and they cant afford to miss the playoffs.

With that 4th, Murray will be inline to take either Fowler, Gudbransson, Connoly, or Gormley. 3 of the 4 are D. Murray will indeed move down if someone else wants to move up to get a guy like Johanssen (who IMO might be the best forward in the draft) and with that move might be able to move up with the 17th.

Anyways, Ottawa is also at a cross roads and they have to decide is this team better off with Spezza right now and still have the ability to really build the team they want OR is it time to change the core and build towards the future while still staying competitive? Should be an interesting 7 weeks ahead.

RobbyJ wrote:

One more aspect to look at from Murray/Melnyk's view, is that the Ottawa fan base (in general, not on this site) is quite fickle. Spezza may annoy die hard hockey fans, but the average ticket buying fan loves him. If you move him there has to be a buzz with the return, ie. Taylor Hall, or else any season ticket momentum will be lost as quickly as it came. Unfortunately not all fans saw the Karlsson pick like we did. This is still a young NHL market and we need stars as much as a Columbus or Atlanta does. Just a different perspective to think about.

Ottawa will get 17 000 a night no matter the team or situation. That's better then most NHL markets and with the dollar at par, The Sens are laughing all the way to the bank.

N4L wrote:

RobbyJ wrote:

One more aspect to look at from Murray/Melnyk's view, is that the Ottawa fan base (in general, not on this site) is quite fickle. Spezza may annoy die hard hockey fans, but the average ticket buying fan loves him. If you move him there has to be a buzz with the return, ie. Taylor Hall, or else any season ticket momentum will be lost as quickly as it came. Unfortunately not all fans saw the Karlsson pick like we did. This is still a young NHL market and we need stars as much as a Columbus or Atlanta does. Just a different perspective to think about.

Ottawa will get 17 000 a night no matter the team or situation. That's better then most NHL markets and with the dollar at par, The Sens are laughing all the way to the bank.

There were several nights this year where there was less than 17000 annonced in the building.

If it was, it wasnt by a lot. Anyways, people in Ottawa will support a youth movement IMO.

Anyways, if his heart isnt in Ottawa right now they have to deal him. Him asking for a trade with an NTC about to kick in, that would be worse then the Heatley request because Spezza isnt exactly a prize asset for the teams he would be willing to go to .

Teams like Atlanta, Columbus, St. Louis, Edmonton, Florida, so on will be in the bidding, do it now and get the best possible return because IMO he has checked out mentally as it sounds and no one is sure about him from the owner to the fans.

I don't think you're getting Johansen without moving up. Him and Howden along with Skinner are my favourites but at 17th I don't see them still there, and we don't have any 2nds to move to top 10.

If Ottawa fans want to keep running their most talented players out of town, we'll be paying star money to checkers playing in our Top 6 forever.

The people that boo Spezza are the same ones that cheer Fisher for Diddling up odd-man rushes with a selfish shot from a bad angle right into the goalies chest.

N4L wrote:In all seriousness, I dont think you need that number 1 pick out of Edmonton. I dont think Hall or Seguin will be the best players out of this draft. Hall has dominate as he is has imporved very little over the last year and I think in a draft (like when they picked Karlsson) you look for a kid that has continued to grow and improve, IMO, those guys are Johanssen and Skinner.

The guys regarded last year as contenders for the first over-all pick were Hall, Kabanov, McFarland and Pulkkinen. Seguin was barely in the picture; he improved IMO probably more than anyone. How do you consider Skinner to be the best player in the draft? He's small and already physically developed, he's not very fast, and he's not particularly intelligent defensively (though that can be learned). The only way he'll come close to that status is if he pulls a Parise post-draft. It's true that Johansen has rocketed up the rankings; some use Thornton as a comparable.

I like the idea of taking a riser but I'd go with Jarnkrok where we are rather than dealing Spezza in part so we can move up 8 spots or so to take Skinner or Johansen.

SeawaySensFan wrote:I still like Brassard and Niederreiter and cap space better than Spezza. Specially with big dollars coming Karlsson's way. Brassard will still have 2 years left on his deal once Karlsson is up for renewal.

Well, there's another thing. Similar deals have been proposed on HF and Columbus fans aren't even considering it. They're a budget team and they can't afford Spezza. It's almost inconceivable that we'd be able to give him up and not take signficant salary back.

And, I still think it's ludicrous to bank on Brassard being a #1 centre next season.

I honestly think getting a deal for Spezza where we'd improve requires some GM to call up and say that their young #1 centreman (say, a Staal or Getzlaf) is unhappy and wants out.

SeawaySensFan wrote:If Ottawa fans want to keep running their most talented players out of town, we'll be paying star money to checkers playing in our Top 6 forever.

The people that boo Spezza are the same ones that cheer Fisher for Diddling up odd-man rushes with a selfish shot from a bad angle right into the goalies chest.

I love his move where he comes down the wing and drives to the outside to give himself an even worse shooting angle.

asq2 wrote:

N4L wrote:In all seriousness, I dont think you need that number 1 pick out of Edmonton. I dont think Hall or Seguin will be the best players out of this draft. Hall has dominate as he is has imporved very little over the last year and I think in a draft (like when they picked Karlsson) you look for a kid that has continued to grow and improve, IMO, those guys are Johanssen and Skinner.

The guys regarded last year as contenders for the first over-all pick were Hall, Kabanov, McFarland and Pulkkinen. Seguin was barely in the picture; he improved IMO probably more than anyone. How do you consider Skinner to be the best player in the draft? He's small and already physically developed, he's not very fast, and he's not particularly intelligent defensively (though that can be learned). The only way he'll come close to that status is if he pulls a Parise post-draft. It's true that Johansen has rocketed up the rankings; some use Thornton as a comparable.

I like the idea of taking a riser but I'd go with Jarnkrok where we are rather than dealing Spezza in part so we can move up 8 spots or so to take Skinner or Johansen.

I didnt say Seguin hasnt improved at all, in fact that's why I would take him over Hall. I defently think Skinner has improved and found another level of play based on his year and his playoff.

As for moving Spezza, you're not moving Spezza to move up in the draft and that never what I implied. You move Spezza because A) he wants to be moved (I think he might) B) you dont believe in him or C) you want to go in another direction and dealing Spezza will help with that. You dont move Spezza just to move him.

SeawaySensFan wrote:If Ottawa fans want to keep running their most talented players out of town, we'll be paying star money to checkers playing in our Top 6 forever.

The people that boo Spezza are the same ones that cheer Fisher for Diddling up odd-man rushes with a selfish shot from a bad angle right into the goalies chest.

They are also the same ones that cheer for Alfi. Spezza isnt going to make or break this franchise. He should be The Sens best player by now, he isnt. He should at this point start looking like a leader, he hasnt. He should at this point he should have started competing harder and understanding what it takes, not even close.

Spezza being dealt for the right package will not hurt this team in the present all that much and The Sens will be much better in the future because of it.

I will say this: this draft is the deepest at forward position since a long time, so rather than move up I'd rather add another 1st rounder in the 20's. Don't know how, but It's what should be done IMO.

N4L wrote:

SeawaySensFan wrote:If Ottawa fans want to keep running their most talented players out of town, we'll be paying star money to checkers playing in our Top 6 forever.

The people that boo Spezza are the same ones that cheer Fisher for Diddling up odd-man rushes with a selfish shot from a bad angle right into the goalies chest.

They are also the same ones that cheer for Alfi. Spezza isnt going to make or break this franchise. He should be The Sens best player by now, he isnt. He should at this point start looking like a leader, he hasnt. He should at this point he should have started competing harder and understanding what it takes, not even close.

Spezza being dealt for the right package will not hurt this team in the present all that much and The Sens will be much better in the future because of it.

How can he be the Sens player with The Alfie in the lineup?

How can Malkin be the best player on the Penguins with Crosby in the lineup? He can't. Should they trade him too?

I don't disagree with trading Spezza if it means having 2 legitimate scoring lines directly because of the trade and because of the resulting cap space. But I won't buy that he's that bad a player nor do I believe he should be run out of town.

I dont think he is a bad player, never said he was. I dont think he is a true first line center on a contending team nor do I think he has the ability to raise his level of play when it matters.

What you get from Spezza in game 22 of the regular season is the same Spezza you get in game 4 of a playoff series. It never changes.

You cant build a team around Spezza and if he is unhappy here do you actually wait for the NTC to kick in and then he has his choice of what happens? Nightmare scenario for the team.

N4L wrote:I would bet the farm Spezza asked Murray to explore some deals, maybe not ask for a trade (although it wouldnt surprise me) but defently look at moving him. He's cut of the same mold anyways. A guy that's a lot of talk and very little action.

What would be actually think of the guy if he asked for a trade?

That's easy to say when you're not a farmer.

If he asked for a trade I honestly would not blame him. $7M he can get anywhere. When he signed I distinctly remember people saying he took a bit of a discount (I wasn't one of those people but my concern was mostly games missed due to injuries). He could go to a non-hockey market and not have to put up being the "lightning rod" of all criticism leveled against the Sens.

RobbyJ wrote:

N4L wrote:

RobbyJ wrote:

One more aspect to look at from Murray/Melnyk's view, is that the Ottawa fan base (in general, not on this site) is quite fickle. Spezza may annoy die hard hockey fans, but the average ticket buying fan loves him. If you move him there has to be a buzz with the return, ie. Taylor Hall, or else any season ticket momentum will be lost as quickly as it came. Unfortunately not all fans saw the Karlsson pick like we did. This is still a young NHL market and we need stars as much as a Columbus or Atlanta does. Just a different perspective to think about.

Ottawa will get 17 000 a night no matter the team or situation. That's better then most NHL markets and with the dollar at par, The Sens are laughing all the way to the bank.

There were several nights this year where there was less than 17000 annonced in the building.

They averaged 18K during the regular season and the Euge said they had to get to round 2 to break even. Rough estimates used to be $1M per home game, so they probably lost $2-2.5M this year.