Would you trade these guys all in one package?

I dont think he is a bad player, never said he was. I dont think he is a true first line center on a contending team nor do I think he has the ability to raise his level of play when it matters.

What you get from Spezza in game 22 of the regular season is the same Spezza you get in game 4 of a playoff series. It never changes.

You cant build a team around Spezza and if he is unhappy here do you actually wait for the NTC to kick in and then he has his choice of what happens? Nightmare scenario for the team.

N4L wrote:I would bet the farm Spezza asked Murray to explore some deals, maybe not ask for a trade (although it wouldnt surprise me) but defently look at moving him. He's cut of the same mold anyways. A guy that's a lot of talk and very little action.

What would be actually think of the guy if he asked for a trade?

That's easy to say when you're not a farmer.

If he asked for a trade I honestly would not blame him. $7M he can get anywhere. When he signed I distinctly remember people saying he took a bit of a discount (I wasn't one of those people but my concern was mostly games missed due to injuries). He could go to a non-hockey market and not have to put up being the "lightning rod" of all criticism leveled against the Sens.

RobbyJ wrote:

N4L wrote:

RobbyJ wrote:

One more aspect to look at from Murray/Melnyk's view, is that the Ottawa fan base (in general, not on this site) is quite fickle. Spezza may annoy die hard hockey fans, but the average ticket buying fan loves him. If you move him there has to be a buzz with the return, ie. Taylor Hall, or else any season ticket momentum will be lost as quickly as it came. Unfortunately not all fans saw the Karlsson pick like we did. This is still a young NHL market and we need stars as much as a Columbus or Atlanta does. Just a different perspective to think about.

Ottawa will get 17 000 a night no matter the team or situation. That's better then most NHL markets and with the dollar at par, The Sens are laughing all the way to the bank.

There were several nights this year where there was less than 17000 annonced in the building.

They averaged 18K during the regular season and the Euge said they had to get to round 2 to break even. Rough estimates used to be $1M per home game, so they probably lost $2-2.5M this year.

N4L wrote:I dont think he is a bad player, never said he was. I dont think he is a true first line center on a contending team nor do I think he has the ability to raise his level of play when it matters.

What you get from Spezza in game 22 of the regular season is the same Spezza you get in game 4 of a playoff series. It never changes.

You cant build a team around Spezza and if he is unhappy here do you actually wait for the NTC to kick in and then he has his choice of what happens? Nightmare scenario for the team.

It's not all about you, buddy. I happen to agree with a lot of what you say. Does he elevate in the playoffs? No. Does he regress? Also a "No".

If his supporting cast elevated their games, it would be a different story. That 2nd line is a black hole, don't you think? Lucky the Kelly line stepped it up or we'd be laughed at again this year.

Bottom line, this franchise has grown into a winner. Time for the fans to grow into winners and learn that it takes more than effort from pluggers to win games. That only helps you avoid getting beaten.

Who's next to get booed for taking risks? My guess is Karlsson. Book it.

That "2nd line" shut down Crosby and outproduced Spezza's line. The 2nd and 3rd line carried that series to where it was. When The Sens REALLY needed Spezza, he cost them in big ways.

Also, for the record, Spezza could easily be the best player on The Sens even with Alfi. The guy is more tallented then Alfi, bigger, and faster, fact of the matter is Alfi's hard work and heart make him a better player, nothing else.

If that's the best thing you can say about you're 7 million dollar, number 1 center is "well, he hasnt regressed" you're team is in trouble.

This Spezza talk is so irritating...and we're only in the second round of the playoffs.

wprager wrote:

N4L wrote:I would bet the farm Spezza asked Murray to explore some deals, maybe not ask for a trade (although it wouldnt surprise me) but defently look at moving him. He's cut of the same mold anyways. A guy that's a lot of talk and very little action.

What would be actually think of the guy if he asked for a trade?

That's easy to say when you're not a farmer.

If he asked for a trade I honestly would not blame him. $7M he can get anywhere. When he signed I distinctly remember people saying he took a bit of a discount (I wasn't one of those people but my concern was mostly games missed due to injuries). He could go to a non-hockey market and not have to put up being the "lightning rod" of all criticism leveled against the Sens.

He could.

Im just so sick of him saying to the media what everyone else wants to hear. "I want the responsibility, I was to be the man, I was to show I can be a complete player"... well then do it. He asks for all these things and with the good comes the bad the thing is there is ALWAYS bad at the worst times for Spezza. He also signed that 49 million dollar contract, if he doesnt like the responsibility that comes with it, tough.

He isnt a kid anymore and you're right, he will make that 7 million elsewhere and be a nobody where in Ottawa no matter what, he's a somebody. Where is Yashin now? He was considered one of the leagues best when he was in Ottawa, he left and he basically fell off the map. Same will happen with Spezza if he leaves. He will just be a high paid player that no one cares about. Believe me, in Atlanta or Columbus, he would be a nobody.

N4L wrote:That "2nd line" shut down Crosby and outproduced Spezza's line. The 2nd and 3rd line carried that series to where it was. When The Sens REALLY needed Spezza, he cost them in big ways.

Also, for the record, Spezza could easily be the best player on The Sens even with Alfi. The guy is more tallented then Alfi, bigger, and faster, fact of the matter is Alfi's hard work and heart make him a better player, nothing else.

If that's the best thing you can say about you're 7 million dollar, number 1 center is "well, he hasnt regressed" you're team is in trouble.

I'm just wondering, just who do you think that 2nd line is? Alfie-Fisher-Cullen? Because Fisher certainly didn't start on that line, and Cullen played with Spezza quite a bit, and Cullen also got some PP points.

Anyhow, interesting stat. Karlsson had 6 points in the playoffs while *the rest of the team defense totalled 5*! He also was a team-worst -4. Do you just shrug your shoulders and say, hey, his game is offense, not defense and move on? Sounds fair to me.

Well, Spezza is a finesse player who does not hit and stays out of corners. Don't expect him to do that. He still got 7 points in 6 games, and would have been one ahead of Alfie if Foligno's goal in OT counted (instead of Carkner's, on which Alfie had the assist).

Tell me, did Cullen, who is a career 0.5 PPG player in the playoffs, benefit from playing with Cap'n Clutch? Absolutely!

So why is it such a stretch for some to give some credit to Spezza for Regin's performance?

Look, I am definitely not trying to canonize the guy. Ask my kid how many times I screamed at the TV wheere Spezza was involved. For better or for worse, he is what he is. A PPG player (regular season and post-season) but not a bruising power-forward or a heart-and-soul guy who will play with a torn stomach muscle. He doesn't deserve $7M but the size of your contract is not going to change your performance level -- or at least it shouldn't. If you want to blame someone for the Sens' team salary structure, well, you know it's the gray-haired gentleman who sounds a little bit like a cartoon duck.

P.S. Wow, that Karlsson stat tells quite the story, doesn't it?

N4L wrote:He could.

Im just so sick of him saying to the media what everyone else wants to hear. "I want the responsibility, I was to be the man, I was to show I can be a complete player"... well then do it. He asks for all these things and with the good comes the bad the thing is there is ALWAYS bad at the worst times for Spezza. He also signed that 49 million dollar contract, if he doesnt like the responsibility that comes with it, tough.

He isnt a kid anymore and you're right, he will make that 7 million elsewhere and be a nobody where in Ottawa no matter what, he's a somebody. Where is Yashin now? He was considered one of the leagues best when he was in Ottawa, he left and he basically fell off the map. Same will happen with Spezza if he leaves. He will just be a high paid player that no one cares about. Believe me, in Atlanta or Columbus, he would be a nobody.

Speaking of nobody, remember when Heatley rolled out the first ball and the girl beside him threw it right into the catcher's mitt? Apparently she was quoted as saying "I didn't even know who he was."

wprager wrote:

N4L wrote:That "2nd line" shut down Crosby and outproduced Spezza's line. The 2nd and 3rd line carried that series to where it was. When The Sens REALLY needed Spezza, he cost them in big ways.

Also, for the record, Spezza could easily be the best player on The Sens even with Alfi. The guy is more tallented then Alfi, bigger, and faster, fact of the matter is Alfi's hard work and heart make him a better player, nothing else.

If that's the best thing you can say about you're 7 million dollar, number 1 center is "well, he hasnt regressed" you're team is in trouble.

I'm just wondering, just who do you think that 2nd line is? Alfie-Fisher-Cullen? Because Fisher certainly didn't start on that line, and Cullen played with Spezza quite a bit, and Cullen also got some PP points.

Anyhow, interesting stat. Karlsson had 6 points in the playoffs while *the rest of the team defense totalled 5*! He also was a team-worst -4. Do you just shrug your shoulders and say, hey, his game is offense, not defense and move on? Sounds fair to me.

Well, Spezza is a finesse player who does not hit and stays out of corners. Don't expect him to do that. He still got 7 points in 6 games, and would have been one ahead of Alfie if Foligno's goal in OT counted (instead of Carkner's, on which Alfie had the assist).

Tell me, did Cullen, who is a career 0.5 PPG player in the playoffs, benefit from playing with Cap'n Clutch? Absolutely!

So why is it such a stretch for some to give some credit to Spezza for Regin's performance?

Look, I am definitely not trying to canonize the guy. Ask my kid how many times I screamed at the TV wheere Spezza was involved. For better or for worse, he is what he is. A PPG player (regular season and post-season) but not a bruising power-forward or a heart-and-soul guy who will play with a torn stomach muscle. He doesn't deserve $7M but the size of your contract is not going to change your performance level -- or at least it shouldn't. If you want to blame someone for the Sens' team salary structure, well, you know it's the gray-haired gentleman who sounds a little bit like a cartoon duck.

P.S. Wow, that Karlsson stat tells quite the story, doesn't it?

Karlsson, simple answer and I think you know the answer. One, he's 19 playing 25 mins a night against the best player in the world. Mistakes are going to happen especially with rookies. Karlsson also doesnt seem to make the same mistakes twice. Karlsson also scored major points for being fairly physical. His game is offense but he plays pretty solid defence, just some bad mistakes with a puck and that will change as he matures and learns.

I think Regin propped up Spezza personally. Look at the goals he scored! 2 of the 3 were fantastic shots from the just inside the blueline, a lesser player doesnt score those. It isnt like those were tap ins. Regin got dirty in the corners, backchecked, took some monster hits to make plays, and so on. Dont forget, 2 of Spezza's points came in a blowout loss on 5 on 3's including the goal. Spezza didnt do anything even strength that would lead me to believe he had a good playoff. He was OK overall. Not exactly what you want you're number 1 center to be, just OK.

As for the bolded part, that is 100% the problem with Spezza and always will be. Look at Datsyuk, he is all finesse but he hits hard on the back check, knocks guys off pucks, and does what's needed to win. Good players will go outside their confort level when the playoffs hit. I agree 100% with what you say and I think that is huge problem.

I like it when people just say "he is what he is" because that's pretty much it. Spezza will always get his points but that's about it and even then, 3 straight years of a decline in production. What's to say next year he just doesnt pack it in when his NTC kicks in, he's untouchable at that point. His character is questionable at best and it wouldnt surprise me if it did. If there was no NTC then you can wait it out but he has it.

wprager wrote:

N4L wrote:That "2nd line" shut down Crosby and outproduced Spezza's line. The 2nd and 3rd line carried that series to where it was. When The Sens REALLY needed Spezza, he cost them in big ways.

Also, for the record, Spezza could easily be the best player on The Sens even with Alfi. The guy is more tallented then Alfi, bigger, and faster, fact of the matter is Alfi's hard work and heart make him a better player, nothing else.

If that's the best thing you can say about you're 7 million dollar, number 1 center is "well, he hasnt regressed" you're team is in trouble.

I'm just wondering, just who do you think that 2nd line is? Alfie-Fisher-Cullen? Because Fisher certainly didn't start on that line, and Cullen played with Spezza quite a bit, and Cullen also got some PP points.

Anyhow, interesting stat. Karlsson had 6 points in the playoffs while *the rest of the team defense totalled 5*! He also was a team-worst -4. Do you just shrug your shoulders and say, hey, his game is offense, not defense and move on? Sounds fair to me.

Well, Spezza is a finesse player who does not hit and stays out of corners. Don't expect him to do that. He still got 7 points in 6 games, and would have been one ahead of Alfie if Foligno's goal in OT counted (instead of Carkner's, on which Alfie had the assist).

Tell me, did Cullen, who is a career 0.5 PPG player in the playoffs, benefit from playing with Cap'n Clutch? Absolutely!

So why is it such a stretch for some to give some credit to Spezza for Regin's performance?

Look, I am definitely not trying to canonize the guy. Ask my kid how many times I screamed at the TV wheere Spezza was involved. For better or for worse, he is what he is. A PPG player (regular season and post-season) but not a bruising power-forward or a heart-and-soul guy who will play with a torn stomach muscle. He doesn't deserve $7M but the size of your contract is not going to change your performance level -- or at least it shouldn't. If you want to blame someone for the Sens' team salary structure, well, you know it's the gray-haired gentleman who sounds a little bit like a cartoon duck.

P.S. Wow, that Karlsson stat tells quite the story, doesn't it?

He's a rookie. He hasn't even played 82 NHL games yet. He needs time to adjust to the speed of the game and learn the nuances of positioning. The fact that he's already the best offensive defenseman on the team is ridiculous. He's going to be a 50 point defenseman next year. At the very least.

wprager wrote:

N4L wrote:He could.

Im just so sick of him saying to the media what everyone else wants to hear. "I want the responsibility, I was to be the man, I was to show I can be a complete player"... well then do it. He asks for all these things and with the good comes the bad the thing is there is ALWAYS bad at the worst times for Spezza. He also signed that 49 million dollar contract, if he doesnt like the responsibility that comes with it, tough.

He isnt a kid anymore and you're right, he will make that 7 million elsewhere and be a nobody where in Ottawa no matter what, he's a somebody. Where is Yashin now? He was considered one of the leagues best when he was in Ottawa, he left and he basically fell off the map. Same will happen with Spezza if he leaves. He will just be a high paid player that no one cares about. Believe me, in Atlanta or Columbus, he would be a nobody.

Speaking of nobody, remember when Heatley rolled out the first ball and the girl beside him threw it right into the catcher's mitt? Apparently she was quoted as saying "I didn't even know who he was."

Heatley is a scum bag.

I also just took a look, and Karlsson had 18 points in his last 16 games. Guy's just 19. He's going to be a superstar defenseman.

Karlsson is on another level then most players his age. He is indeed the next real captain of The Sens. By the time he is 25 or 26, he will be the captain of The Ottawa Senators. His attitude, ability, personality, and work ethic make him that special player that maybe only comes along every 10 years.

Q: Are you confident that Spezza can help lead this team?

MELNYK: I have known Jason since his junior days when he was playing for Mississauga (in the OHL). I actually tried to trade for him to get him onto St. Mike’s. He’s a tremendous talent. He’s had some bad luck on the ice. Is he emotional? I don’t know him that well. He is an elite player. With elite players, the fans see them making a lot of money and when they aren’t performing, they show their displeasure. On the other hand, it’s amazing when he’s doing well, everybody is throwing roses at the guy. Our fans aren’t like Philly fans. In Philly, the guy would be run out of the building. A little booing to show your displeasure is nothing like what would be done in Philly, New Jersey or New York. We’re actually very polite, very Canadian.

Spezza would be destroyed in a lot of places and he complains that being boo'd is unfair. The guy is as weak mentally as he seems physically at times. Burry him in Atlanta or some other places where he wont be boo's. Good for Melnyk! He said it exactly how it is!

N4L wrote:Q: Are you confident that Spezza can help lead this team?

MELNYK: I have known Jason since his junior days when he was playing for Mississauga (in the OHL). I actually tried to trade for him to get him onto St. Mike’s. He’s a tremendous talent. He’s had some bad luck on the ice. Is he emotional? I don’t know him that well. He is an elite player. With elite players, the fans see them making a lot of money and when they aren’t performing, they show their displeasure. On the other hand, it’s amazing when he’s doing well, everybody is throwing roses at the guy. Our fans aren’t like Philly fans. In Philly, the guy would be run out of the building. A little booing to show your displeasure is nothing like what would be done in Philly, New Jersey or New York. We’re actually very polite, very Canadian.

Spezza would be destroyed in a lot of places and he complains that being boo'd is unfair. The guy is as weak mentally as he seems physically at times. Burry him in Atlanta or some other places where he wont be boo's. Good for Melnyk! He said it exactly how it is!

The deal is gonna have to make sense on so many levels to justify trading him though..."burying" him in Atlanta or Columbus or Long Island or wherever isn't gonna cut it.

Obviously not but those are some places where the return could potentially be pretty solid. Just hearing stuff like "SPezza was upset because he was boo'd" makes me so mad. They pay his salary incanse he doesnt know that.

Anyways, I would love to see him down in Atlanta or Florida, that would suit his personality perfectly.

N4L wrote:Obviously not but those are some places where the return could potentially be pretty solid. Just hearing stuff like "SPezza was upset because he was boo'd" makes me so mad. They pay his salary incanse he doesnt know that.

Anyways, I would love to see him down in Atlanta or Florida, that would suit his personality perfectly.

I don't necesarilly disagree with some of what you say, but you have to admit that people turn on Spezza quicker than anyone else on this team. He is widely regarded as the team 'scapegoat' on most nights, even when it's not his fault. He is quickly becoming Wade Redden V2.0 in that regard.