GAME 4 - 2010 Stanley Cup GAME DAY: Ottawa Senators (1) @ Pittsburgh Penguins (2), Tuesday Apr. 20, 2010 - 7:00PM EST.

SpezDispenser wrote:

wprager wrote:Another argument for keeping Spezza -- remember what happened when we lost or moved Chara, Redden, Meszaros (plus Corvo, Preissing, Schneider). Our D went into a huge funk that we still haven't recovered from.

Over the last few years we've lost a lot of forwards (in no particular order) Havlat, Heatley, Vermette, Hossa, the pending UFAs we signed (including Cullen this year -- don't kid yourselves, he's not coming back). We'll lost Kovalev soon, and who knows if Michalek will still be top-six after yet another knee surgery. Those are all top-six and that's a lot of turnover.

Yeah, there's still a problem with our D moving the puck for sure. Karlsson will help a lot obviously, but we need another guy like him.

I've always like Pavel Kubina. Can we have him?

Bingo. Kubina would be a nice improvement on Kuba. You will still be frustrated by the lack of physical play, but at least there would be some, he has a good shot AND he will use it occasionally.

N4L wrote:Yup, I would too. Thornton, Couture, and McGinn for Spezza, Foligno, and Lee... why not. Kind of makes sense.

You people are kidding right ?

Trading Spezza for the biggest certified playoff choker and "#1 centre who's not really a #1 centre" ?

Boston already figured out a long time ago Thornton isn't "the man". San Jose is learning that the hard way. Anyone who watched the Olympics would've seen how invisible Thornton was playing with some of the best players in the world.

And you want to make us fans in Ottawa suffer ? We know exactly what we'd be getting and it's the last thing we need.

I'm all for change but there has to be some sort of upgrade.

Trade him to Edmonton or something, maybe we can get Penner and Hemsky or something.

N4L wrote:We'll see, a lot of things have to play out. If San Jose gets bounced in roudn 1 though, I can absolutely see SJ and Ottawa dealing for each others under acheiving number 1 centers.

I think that would be the worst possible move for both franchises. The ONLY reason Ottawa does this is because Thornton has a year left (or is it 2) on his contract, so he'd be off the books sooner than Spezza. But, I can't stress this enough to people, Joe Thornton is not wanted or needed here. We're gonna try to change the culture here, we already have. The last remaining guy who's not the hard working, 2-way player is Spezza and even he showed that he could play that style of game this year. It's when he tries to do everything himself that he fucks up.

This is the very last thing I would do (I would never do it).

Has nothing to do with playoff choking, it has to do with The Sens having options and not being stuck with a 5 year, NTC for a guy who has been proven to disapear when things get tough.

Im not saying Thornton is the answer, anything but that really but people want to say "who's going to to replace Spezza's PPG average in the regular season?". Well, there it is. Don't say trade him for picks and prospects THEN complain about the production not being there... that arguement is kind of sad.Thornton has 1 year left on his deal and something in Ottawa has to be done.

Is it spinning their wheels? In a sense it is but the fact of the matter remains having Spezza for 5 years with a NTC is a huge problem and the issue at hand. Thornton is also a better player the Spezza, choking or not. He's done things Spezza has never and will never do.

RobbyJ wrote:Bingo. Kubina would be a nice improvement on Kuba. You will still be frustrated by the lack of physical play, but at least there would be some, he has a good shot AND he will use it occasionally.

Agreed, except I want Kubina to replace A-Train, not Kuba. I want Phillips to get a sturdy new partner, I want Kuba with Karlsson and I'm okay with Campoli and Carkner/Lee depending on the opponent. If I'm gonna pay 5 million dollars, I want a really good D-man.

Hamhuis would be another option. I think Kuba should probably stay this next year, we're not deep enough and rushing Cowen in isn't a great idea unless he's 100% ready.

N4L wrote:Has nothing to do with playoff choking, it has to do with The Sens having options and not being stuck with a 5 year, NTC for a guy who has been proven to disapear when things get tough.

Im not saying Thornton is the answer, anything but that really but people want to say "who's going to to replace Spezza's PPG average in the regular season?". Well, there it is. Don't say trade him for picks and prospects THEN complain about the production not being there... that arguement is kind of sad.Thornton has 1 year left on his deal and something in Ottawa has to be done.

Is it spinning their wheels? In a sense it is but the fact of the matter remains having Spezza for 5 years with a NTC is a huge problem and the issue at hand. Thornton is also a better player the Spezza, choking or not. He's done things Spezza has never and will never do.

The only way this works is if you suck Richard's agent's wiener and it's all but agreed upon that he'll be a Sen next summer.

Otherwise you have the cap space, but you're stuck looking for a top line center.

SpezDispenser wrote:

N4L wrote:We'll see, a lot of things have to play out. If San Jose gets bounced in roudn 1 though, I can absolutely see SJ and Ottawa dealing for each others under acheiving number 1 centers.

I think that would be the worst possible move for both franchises. The ONLY reason Ottawa does this is because Thornton has a year left (or is it 2) on his contract, so he'd be off the books sooner than Spezza. But, I can't stress this enough to people, Joe Thornton is not wanted or needed here. We're gonna try to change the culture here, we already have. The last remaining guy who's not the hard working, 2-way player is Spezza and even he showed that he could play that style of game this year. It's when he tries to do everything himself that he fucks up.

This is the very last thing I would do (I would never do it).

Getting out of Spezza's contract might be the best thing to happen to Ottawa since, well, Heatley asked for a deal.

Point isnt picking up Thornton because he's a better player then Spezza (which he is) but replacing your number 1 center is a concern and Thornton would do that short term, he is also in the last year of a deal.

SpezDispenser wrote:

N4L wrote:Has nothing to do with playoff choking, it has to do with The Sens having options and not being stuck with a 5 year, NTC for a guy who has been proven to disapear when things get tough.

Im not saying Thornton is the answer, anything but that really but people want to say "who's going to to replace Spezza's PPG average in the regular season?". Well, there it is. Don't say trade him for picks and prospects THEN complain about the production not being there... that arguement is kind of sad.Thornton has 1 year left on his deal and something in Ottawa has to be done.

Is it spinning their wheels? In a sense it is but the fact of the matter remains having Spezza for 5 years with a NTC is a huge problem and the issue at hand. Thornton is also a better player the Spezza, choking or not. He's done things Spezza has never and will never do.

The only way this works is if you suck Richard's agent's wiener and it's all but agreed upon that he'll be a Sen next summer.

Otherwise you have the cap space, but you're stuck looking for a top line center.

Or you resign Thornton. There is no difference between Thornton and Spezza beside's Thornton being the better player. I cant stand Thornton either but it makes sense.

N4L wrote:
Getting out of Spezza's contract might be the best thing to happen to Ottawa since, well, Heatley asked for a deal.

Point isnt picking up Thornton because he's a better player then Spezza (which he is) but replacing your number 1 center is a concern and Thornton would do that short term, he is also in the last year of a deal.

Don't worry about Spezza's NTC, it's not a NMC, your hands aren't 100% tied. There are things that can be done, the NTC is there so that you can't dump Spezza in Atlanta or somewhere he doesn't want to go, but if you went to him and told him to compile a list of 10 teams he'll agree to, I think he does it. Heck, Murray might do that tonight after the game or tomorrow to begin looking around this summer, but the good money is on Murray waiting to see how Spezza responds to the criticism he's been getting, then the money is on Murray and Clouston having a long discussion about whether he can use Spezza or if he wants something different. If Clouston has his heart set on getting Spezza to finally play his style, he won't be going anywhere this summer.

N4L wrote:
Or you resign Thornton. There is no difference between Thornton and Spezza beside's Thornton being the better player. I cant stand Thornton either but it makes sense.

I would never re-sign him. He's a loser through and through. You call Spezza a loser, but this year's Ottawa team isn't anything like the West Conference leading Sharks and Thornton has been a meek loser (so has Marleau and Heatley).

If we do this, we do it right, I can guarantee that's the way Murray's thinking as well. If this happens, then we want a Brad Richards, Andy McDonald type of player who plays both ends.

N4L wrote:
Is it spinning their wheels? In a sense it is but the fact of the matter remains having Spezza for 5 years with a NTC is a huge problem and the issue at hand. Thornton is also a better player the Spezza, choking or not. He's done things Spezza has never and will never do.

Why would San Jose make that deal ? If they implode in the playoffs they're going to want to get rid of Jumbo Joe just like we'd want to get rid of Spezza. Why would they want to take on Spezza, you don't think Doug Wilson is having second thoughts on Heatley ?

If we make the deal and not resign Thornton then what ? The only way you're gonna get a #1 centre is through the draft, the same way we got Spezza to begin with. Players like that are not traded unless they're damaged goods and no team lets a player like that walk as a free agent.

If Ottawa's management isn't careful we'll end up like Edmonton. A cinderella SCF run followed by a constant decline, star players demanding trades and hampered by overpaid underachievers and unmovable contracts.

Of course things aren't as bad here but I see a lot of the same trends and problems.

Spezza would have to be traded for draft picks or young prospects (something like Weiss or Horton for example) and our scouts better be 100% sure of those players potential and attitude. I also believe (with very few exceptions) that this team should be getting younger players not older 30+ players whose career will slowly start trending downwards.

I'd trade Spezza for Lecavalier though (if the salary cap hits would work). We at least have a chance there of winning the trade and improving the team, and Vinnie would be a far better poster boy for the franchise than Giggles.

Horton is a thundering loser. Keep him well away as well.

SpezDispenser wrote:

N4L wrote:
Or you resign Thornton. There is no difference between Thornton and Spezza beside's Thornton being the better player. I cant stand Thornton either but it makes sense.

I would never re-sign him. He's a loser through and through. You call Spezza a loser, but this year's Ottawa team isn't anything like the West Conference leading Sharks and Thornton has been a meek loser (so has Marleau and Heatley).

If we do this, we do it right, I can guarantee that's the way Murray's thinking as well. If this happens, then we want a Brad Richards, Andy McDonald type of player who plays both ends.

Im not argueing that, Thornton is a loser (even though he's won a ton more then Spezza) and I think he's a dirt bag too, but if that's how you want to replace your 1st line center, if that is indeed the issue people have a problem with, that's a way to do it.

Personally, I think Spezza should be dealt for picks and prospects and worrying about a 1st line guy is secondary.

N4L wrote:
Im not argueing that, Thornton is a loser (even though he's won a ton more then Spezza) and I think he's a dirt bag too, but if that's how you want to replace your 1st line center, if that is indeed the issue people have a problem with, that's a way to do it.

Personally, I think Spezza should be dealt for picks and prospects and worrying about a 1st line guy is secondary.

What has Thornton won? The World Cup? The Olympics? Screw that, talk to me when he's done something where he's the top talented guy on the team - like in San Jose for instance.

I enjoyed watching the Olympics, it was fun, but Canada winning meant nothing compared to a Stanley Cup. To me you could win every pee-wee championship out there, Memorial Cup, World Cup, whatever and then never win a Stanley Cup and to me that renders everything else 100% useless.

Hoags wrote:

N4L wrote:
Is it spinning their wheels? In a sense it is but the fact of the matter remains having Spezza for 5 years with a NTC is a huge problem and the issue at hand. Thornton is also a better player the Spezza, choking or not. He's done things Spezza has never and will never do.

Why would San Jose make that deal ? If they implode in the playoffs they're going to want to get rid of Jumbo Joe just like we'd want to get rid of Spezza. Why would they want to take on Spezza, you don't think Doug Wilson is having second thoughts on Heatley ?

If we make the deal and not resign Thornton then what ? The only way you're gonna get a #1 centre is through the draft, the same way we got Spezza to begin with. Players like that are not traded unless they're damaged goods and no team lets a player like that walk as a free agent.

If Ottawa's management isn't careful we'll end up like Edmonton. A cinderella SCF run followed by a constant decline, star players demanding trades and hampered by overpaid underachievers and unmovable contracts.

Of course things aren't as bad here but I see a lot of the same trends and problems.

Spezza would have to be traded for draft picks or young prospects (something like Weiss or Horton for example) and our scouts better be 100% sure of those players potential and attitude. I also believe (with very few exceptions) that this team should be getting younger players not older 30+ players whose career will slowly start trending downwards.

I'd trade Spezza for Lecavalier though (if the salary cap hits would work). We at least have a chance there of winning the trade and improving the team, and Vinnie would be a far better poster boy for the franchise than Giggles.

That I agree with... we were just shooting the Dung last night anyways. I dont think we should trade for Thornton as much as I think we should keep Spezza.

I think the deal to be made is down in Atlanta or over in St.Louis.

SpezDispenser wrote:

N4L wrote:
Im not argueing that, Thornton is a loser (even though he's won a ton more then Spezza) and I think he's a dirt bag too, but if that's how you want to replace your 1st line center, if that is indeed the issue people have a problem with, that's a way to do it.

Personally, I think Spezza should be dealt for picks and prospects and worrying about a 1st line guy is secondary.

What has Thornton won? The World Cup? The Olympics? Screw that, talk to me when he's done something where he's the top talented guy on the team - like in San Jose for instance.

I enjoyed watching the Olympics, it was fun, but Canada winning meant nothing compared to a Stanley Cup. To me you could win every pee-wee championship out there, Memorial Cup, World Cup, whatever and then never win a Stanley Cup and to me that renders everything else 100% useless.

He was the league's MVP and scoring leader too, World Jr Championship too. Look, what ever you want to say about Thornton I agree with, hell, I know more about his off ice crap then everyone here and as bad as you think he is, he is probably worse. He was a non factor in The Olympics, he mails it in, in the playoffs, so on.

My point is, if the 1st line center that leaves Ottawa has to e replaced, well, there ya go. You cant use the pro's for Spezza saying he is a PPG, he is a legit number 1 center, then say, "well, Thornton it doesnt matter, he's a loser". That's picking and choosing your arguement.

I think he should be dealt for young prospects/picks and a top 6 guy perhaps.

N4L wrote:
He was the league's MVP and scoring leader too, World Jr Championship too. Look, what ever you want to say about Thornton I agree with, hell, I know more about his off ice crap then everyone here and as bad as you think he is, he is probably worse. He was a non factor in The Olympics, he mails it in, in the playoffs, so on.

My point is, if the 1st line center that leaves Ottawa has to e replaced, well, there ya go. You cant use the pro's for Spezza saying he is a PPG, he is a legit number 1 center, then say, "well, Thornton it doesnt matter, he's a loser". That's picking and choosing your arguement.

I think he should be dealt for young prospects/picks and a top 6 guy perhaps.

We need to replace that offense, but we still need to change directions in terms of the player we get back. If Spezza goes, then we nee to change that player into someone who plays both ends of the ice really well. I don't think I'll shut up about Brad Richards until he's extended by Dallas. That's such a perfect guy for Ottawa.

N4L wrote:
I think he should be dealt for young prospects/picks and a top 6 guy perhaps.

Vinnie's the only guy I can think of that I'd pull the trigger on, assuming we could make the numbers work and Tampa would be willing to do it.