GDT - Game #7: Sens @ Flames Oct 28, 2016, 9:00pm

MarkStone wrote:Hoffman is a ducking bust.

Hoffman has led the team in scoring his first two full seasons. You want him to be a Selke finalist as well?

Funny as if there is one player I'm not all that worried about it's Hoffman. Lots of bad luck not scoring but the shots are there.

wprager wrote:

MarkStone wrote:Hoffman is a ducking bust.

Hoffman has led the team in scoring his first two full seasons.  You want him to be a Selke finalist as well?

He has been dreadful to start the year. He's paid to score goals and in my opinion he has packed it in after getting the big contract

I disagree. He's doing the same thing he's always done. He's getting tons of shots, getting chances, getting the occasional assist. He's rung the post/bar a few times already. It'll come.

wprager wrote:I disagree.  He's doing the same thing he's always done.  He's getting tons of shots, getting chances, getting the occasional assist.  He's rung the post/bar a few times already.  It'll come.

He's been barely noticeable to me in mostly every game. Except for power play.

I kind of agree with Ev on Hoffman. I wouldn't call him a bust yet, but as both Ev and I said last year, he's never going to change the way he plays, and when his perimeter shots aren't going in, he has nothing else to offer.

Hoffman has 4 assists and is a -3. Turris has 5 points and is a -2. Dion Phaneuf has one assist and is a -7.

Carry on.

Plus minus is irrelevant.

MarkStone wrote:Plus minus is irrelevant.

*You're* irrelevant. You're irrelevant. This whole forum is irrelevant.

-- ... and stats for all.

You know what's *not* irrelevant? Phaneuf has been the Sens' worst D-man since the season started. I use stats just to back it up but it's been pretty evident and I *have been* on his case since the beginning. Ceci has had a couple bad games but, overall, he's been dragged down by his partner.

Hoffman has not been good, but apart from not scoring goals, he's been pretty much the same as the last two years.

Turris hasn't been as good as we've seen in the past but it could also be that Stone, after missing camp, has been weighing him down.

Pretty much the whole team with the exception of what should be our fourth line (Dzeingel-Kelly-Neil) have played below expectations. OK, maybe I should add Karlsson there -- he's still leading the team in scoring, going at a PPG+ pace, while playing a regular PK shift and keeping his shifts to under 1 minute (buying into Boucher's system).

So to single out Hoffman is, while predictable, coming from you, is a little short-sighted in light of everything else happening on this team.

Hoffman's a perimeter player with a lethal shot.  that's the difference.

wprager wrote:You know what's *not* irrelevant?  Phaneuf has been the Sens' worst D-man since the season started.  I use stats just to back it up but it's been pretty evident and I *have been* on his case since the beginning.  Ceci has had a couple bad games but, overall, he's been dragged down by his partner.  

Hoffman has not been good, but apart from not scoring goals, he's been pretty much the same as the last two years.  

Turris hasn't been as good as we've seen in the past but it could also be that Stone, after missing camp, has been weighing him down.

Pretty much the whole team with the exception of what should be our fourth line (Dzeingel-Kelly-Neil) have played below expectations.  OK, maybe I should add Karlsson there -- he's still leading the team in scoring, going at a PPG+ pace, while playing a regular PK shift and keeping his shifts to under 1 minute (buying into Boucher's system).

So to single out Hoffman is, while predictable, coming from you, is a little short-sighted in light of everything else happening on this team.

Ceci has been worse than Phaneuf by most metrics and the eye test. But I expect both to round into form. I would trade Ceci though.

I don't see how we've played below expectations. We've improved one very shot stat and our offense has been fine.

Hoffman, with his new contract and expectations, has been the most disappointing forward, no question.

Hoffman has not been the same at all. He isn't as noticeable, not getting strong chances, and not using his speed like he can.

Phaneuf has more shots on goal. He also has 3 more minors, -3 more in the +/-.

Ceci is 2nd on the team in time on ice per game. Surprisingly, he is still 2nd when looking at even strength TOI, and first in short-handed situations. Phaneuf is well ahead of him in PP TOI. I'd imagine Ceci would be well ahead of Phaneuf in offensive stats if he had his PP TOI.

My first reason for saying what I did about Phaneuf was the old eye test. I haven't seen every minute of every Sens game, for sure, but of what I have watched Phaneuf has been quite disappointing. Then I looked at the stats and they backed up my initial impression. The most damning is the TOI which indicates that the coaching staff agrees. They are trying to get Phaneuf going by giving him PP ice time (likely why he has 18 shots on goal) but he is *4th* on the team in short-handed TOI per game (behind Ceci, Karlsson and Methot). That is a clear indication of where the coaching staff thinks he is at. While I think he will improve, he has, to this point, been the biggest disappointment on the Sens' back-end.

Now, show me a single metric (beside shots on goal) which demonstrates how Ceci has been worse than Phaneuf?

Our offense has been led by Dzingel. Turris has 4 goals but, very tellingly, only 1 assist. It's clear that the top line is not quite there yet.

I am not at all disappointed by the Sens' record but, like I said, apart from that 4th line I find the forward corps to be a little behind where I hoped they would be. Understandably -- Stone missed most of the pre-season and MacArthur is out.

wprager wrote:Our offense has been led by Dzingel.  Turris has 4 goals but, very tellingly, only 1 assist.  It's clear that  the top line is not quite there yet.

I am not at all disappointed by the Sens' record but, like I said, apart from that 4th line I find the forward corps to be a little behind where I hoped they would be.  Understandably -- Stone missed most of the pre-season and MacArthur is out.  

Points don't tell the whole story. Hoff hasn't got it going yet but he's getting a ton of SOG. Pageau has seemed a bit off to me but again - that line is a little different.

wprager wrote:You know what's *not* irrelevant?  Phaneuf has been the Sens' worst D-man since the season started.  I use stats just to back it up but it's been pretty evident and I *have been* on his case since the beginning.  Ceci has had a couple bad games but, overall, he's been dragged down by his partner.  

Give credit where credit's due, Phaneuf had a great game last night. Didn't take any penalties, blocked a ton of shots, even generated a couple shots on goal. Second in ice time after Karlsson.

Speaking of Karlsson, he may not have gotten any points last night, but he was second on the team in blocked shots and first in ice time, and spent more time killing penalties than he did on the powerplay (of course that's probably mostly on the zebras). Like in the first, I'm not saying the Sens didn't deserve any of those calls they got, but Lucic was very liberal with his stick on a couple occasions.

I don't get it, did Karlsson not kick the puck over to Kelly who passed it over to Ryan?

EDIT: No he did not.