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GM Hockey » Ottawa Senators » Predict Spezza's return

Predict Spezza's return

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Flo The Action
tim1_2
Cap'n Clutch
LeCaptain
DefenceWinsChampionships
Hoags
shabbs
dennycrane
SeawaySensFan
spader
sandysensfan
Ev
NEELY
PTFlea
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166Predict Spezza's return - Page 12 Empty Re: Predict Spezza's return Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:57 pm

PTFlea


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In related news, Spezza wouldn't know winning if it hit him in the junk.

167Predict Spezza's return - Page 12 Empty Re: Predict Spezza's return Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:23 pm

DefenceWinsChampionships


All-Star
All-Star

Flo The Action wrote:
wprager wrote:So you're saying that big and physical players who have success in the East will also have success in the West, but small and/or finesse players who have success in the East will fail in the West?   Seguin is not Marty St. Louis, for sure, but he is a finesse player more than a physical power forward.  Thornton is big but, just like Spezza, not very physical.  He will stand in there and absorb the hits to make the play but doesn't go out of his way to deliver hits.  He's been pretty successful (but, of course, since he hasn't won a Cup he's just another loser).

Please provide examples of skill players who excelled in the East and failed in the West.

For the record, in 2011-12 (a good year for Spezza) he was 5-20-25 in 22 games against the West (counting Winnipeg as West since they are now; counting Detroit as well, since they were good).  A quick check for the 5 years before that (excluding Winnipeg this time) he had 57 points in 67 games -- so, given he is a PPG player over his career I'd say his production does go down playing out West.  But don't forget that he'll be playing 2LC behind Seguin, so I'd expect the level of competition he faces to be lower this time around.
it's not about finding players that have excelled in the east and failed in the west. you can take thornton for example. he may not be physical but as stated he can absorb the hits. I have serious doubts as to whether he can do that day in, day out.
his back is not in good shape and let's see after facing full seasons based in the west if he puts himself in situations to receive hits or will he shy away from those. my guess is we'll start seeing a player who's effectiveness is more suited to the powerplay and who's effectiveness 5 on 5 declines drastically.  

This is where I'm at personally, though I think his 5 on 5 play may improve solely on the basis that it can't get any worse than last season.

I find it humorous that the debate isn't necessarily about whether or not Spezza can succeed in the west. The discussion we're having is whether or not he can survive. To mutually exclusive outcomes.

168Predict Spezza's return - Page 12 Empty Re: Predict Spezza's return Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:33 pm

wprager


Administrator
Administrator

NEELY wrote:
22_4_ever wrote:
NEELY wrote:Michalek vs Heatley was a straight up win for the Sens.

I think looking back it was, but I don't remember too many crowing about it...

That's why it is so nice to be on that side of the fence.

Don't forget, also, the wasted roster spot for Cheechoo.

169Predict Spezza's return - Page 12 Empty Re: Predict Spezza's return Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:34 pm

shabbs

shabbs
Hall of Famer
Hall of Famer

Oh man.... Cheechoo...

170Predict Spezza's return - Page 12 Empty Re: Predict Spezza's return Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:39 pm

DefenceWinsChampionships


All-Star
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SpezDispenser wrote:Turns out I was very pleased about the Heatley trade.  Pumped about Michalek and cautiously optimistic about Cheechoo.  What burned my arse a bit - predicatably - was the 2nd round pick not being a 1st.

I can't remember exactly but I believe EDM ended up with that 2nd rd pick (for Sutton) and drafted Martin Marincin. I do remember Tyler Toffoloi going the pick after. San Jose drafted Charlie Coyle with their 1st rd pick.

2010 was a deep draft but still many notables including Dylan McIlrath (10th overall) and Joey Hishon (17th overall) likely won't be stars in the NHL. Justin Faulk went 37th overall, DSP 42nd, Toffoli 47th, Jason Zucker 59th. Steals of the draft appear to be Mrazek (141), Gallagher (147) and Mark Stone (178th).

Point I'm making is unless it's a deep draft or a top 10 pick, drafting late in the 1st round versus early to mid 2nd round doesn't guarantee you anything. Murray wanting that 1st rd pick this year was likely the cause of Spezza not being traded that weekend. It sounds like Ottawa would have drafted the same player either way.

171Predict Spezza's return - Page 12 Empty Re: Predict Spezza's return Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:22 pm

LeCaptain

LeCaptain
All-Star
All-Star

Spezza will probably succeed in the regular season based on PP alone.
He's gonna falter in the playoffs like Joe Thornton because those kinds of players cannot play an uptempo speedy game.
Even the past few playoffs he's had he's been very average especially against the Penguins who are just too fast for him.



Last edited by LeKing on Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:23 pm; edited 1 time in total

172Predict Spezza's return - Page 12 Empty Re: Predict Spezza's return Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:22 pm

NEELY


Mod
Mod

wprager wrote:
NEELY wrote:
22_4_ever wrote:
NEELY wrote:Michalek vs Heatley was a straight up win for the Sens.

I think looking back it was, but I don't remember too many crowing about it...

That's why it is so nice to be on that side of the fence.

Don't forget, also, the wasted roster spot for Cheechoo.

cap dump and he played 1/2 the season so w/e.

173Predict Spezza's return - Page 12 Empty Re: Predict Spezza's return Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:23 pm

PTFlea

PTFlea
Co-Founder
Co-Founder

DefenceWinsChampionships wrote:
SpezDispenser wrote:Turns out I was very pleased about the Heatley trade.  Pumped about Michalek and cautiously optimistic about Cheechoo.  What burned my arse a bit - predicatably - was the 2nd round pick not being a 1st.

I can't remember exactly but I believe EDM ended up with that 2nd rd pick (for Sutton) and drafted Martin Marincin. I do remember Tyler Toffoloi going the pick after. San Jose drafted Charlie Coyle with their 1st rd pick.

2010 was a deep draft but still many notables including Dylan McIlrath (10th overall) and Joey Hishon (17th overall) likely won't be stars in the NHL. Justin Faulk went 37th overall, DSP 42nd, Toffoli 47th, Jason Zucker 59th. Steals of the draft appear to be Mrazek (141), Gallagher (147) and Mark Stone (178th).

Point I'm making is unless it's a deep draft or a top 10 pick, drafting late in the 1st round versus early to mid 2nd round doesn't guarantee you anything. Murray wanting that 1st rd pick this year was likely the cause of Spezza not being traded that weekend. It sounds like Ottawa would have drafted the same player either way.

Yeah, that's fair enough. I think you can find examples of that from every draft though - particularily when looking at strong drafting teams like Ottawa. I'd be hard-pressed to pick more than 10 or 12 players that should have been taken ahead of Silfverberg and Lehner in the 09 draft (without looking).

The allure of the 1st is knowing you can get the guy you want without waiting on pins and needles like the Sens likely did this year. It's also a much more powerful trade chip if you feel like going that route.

Six to one really, we're lucky we have a scouting staff that's so solid.

174Predict Spezza's return - Page 12 Empty Re: Predict Spezza's return Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:50 am

22_4_ever

22_4_ever
Sophomore
Sophomore

DefenceWinsChampionships wrote:
SpezDispenser wrote:Turns out I was very pleased about the Heatley trade.  Pumped about Michalek and cautiously optimistic about Cheechoo.  What burned my arse a bit - predicatably - was the 2nd round pick not being a 1st.

I can't remember exactly but I believe EDM ended up with that 2nd rd pick (for Sutton) and drafted Martin Marincin. I do remember Tyler Toffoloi going the pick after. San Jose drafted Charlie Coyle with their 1st rd pick.

2010 was a deep draft but still many notables including Dylan McIlrath (10th overall) and Joey Hishon (17th overall) likely won't be stars in the NHL. Justin Faulk went 37th overall, DSP 42nd, Toffoli 47th, Jason Zucker 59th. Steals of the draft appear to be Mrazek (141), Gallagher (147) and Mark Stone (178th).

Point I'm making is unless it's a deep draft or a top 10 pick, drafting late in the 1st round versus early to mid 2nd round doesn't guarantee you anything. Murray wanting that 1st rd pick this year was likely the cause of Spezza not being traded that weekend. It sounds like Ottawa would have drafted the same player either way.

That pick actually went to the Islanders and then they traded it to Chicago...
Don't remember who they picked, but I remember looking it up one day to see who really won the Heatley trade.

175Predict Spezza's return - Page 12 Empty Re: Predict Spezza's return Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:35 pm

wprager

wprager
Administrator
Administrator

And the Islanders traded that pick (58th overall) and their own second rounder (35th) to Chicago for the Hawks' 1st rounder (30th  overall).  The Hawks used that 58th overall to draft one Kent Simpson -- a goalie who's played one period in the NHL, allowing 2 goals on 7 shots.

And for all their trouble, the Islanders ended up drafting Brock Nelson with that 30th overall pick. Brock had 2 more goals than Dany Heatley last season, in 4 fewer games played.


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