Ottawa Senators (present and past) TIDBITS & QUICK HITS!

NEELY wrote:One sided?  If you can't look at the current Sens make up and look at how Spezza plays the game and the level he is currently playing and not come to the conclusion that he being the center piece and captain of the franchise then you seriously need to sit down and analyze what kind of team the Sens are actually building here.

Saying Spezza is a better player when the other team has a penalty because of the personnel on the ice is just so incredibly wrong I question why you even said it.  There is no chance you believe it and you just want to take the opposite opinion.  

So it's a one sided argument you feel the need to take the other side whether you agree with it or not?  Ok, Brian Griffin.

Brian is dead, you insensitive clod!

Brian is not dead. They brought him back

If you want to play devils advocate go right ahead but please say something or provide something that has a little substance. Saying "well Spezza is a better player because he plays with Ryan, Turris, and MacArthur on the PP" while totally ignoring the circumstance surrounding what a power play actually is... well it's beyond grasping at straws.

How come Spezza was awful with both Ryan and MacArthur when given the chance and they were playing at what had to be close to their very best? There's a reason why those two are with Turris and there's a reason they have stayed together.

Come at me with some reasons or even statistics in this case of Spezza's play 5 on 5 where 75% or more of the game is played. Please provide anything which would indicate his play has been anything close to acceptable with any winger on the team.

Look, if Spezza wasn't being paid $ and wearing the 'C', if he was the team's 2nd line center or even a 2B, then there wouldn't be so much hatred in your posts. You'd probably say the guy's injured again, so we should be really careful about giving him a long-term contract or the 'C'.

Tell me, you never commented on the earlier post about Neil -- in a game against the Leafs, when Kadri takes a run at one of ours, do we need Neil to score a goal or give a Diddle and make some hits?

NEELY wrote:If you want to play devils advocate go right ahead but please say something or provide something that has a little substance.  Saying "well Spezza is a better player because he plays with Ryan, Turris, and MacArthur on the PP" while totally ignoring the circumstance surrounding what a power play actually is... well it's beyond grasping at straws.  

How come Spezza was awful with both Ryan and MacArthur when given the chance and they were playing at what had to be close to their very best?  There's a reason why those two are with Turris and there's a reason they have stayed together.

Come at me with some reasons or even statistics in this case of Spezza's play 5 on 5 where 75% or more of the game is played.  Please provide anything which would indicate his play has been anything close to acceptable with any winger on the team.

I'm not going to say that Spezza is playing well, or that he's playing up to expectations. He's been bad way more than he's been good. The lazy skating on the backcheck absolutely infuriates me. In retrospect, giving him the 'C' was a mistake, but it was a decision that was forced on the team by Alfie's betrayal.

But I'm not going to blame the whole season and every loss and every bad goal and every missed assignment on one player, even if he *is* the Captain and highest paid player. You are letting your emotions rule your posts, like always. You've lost perspective.

wprager wrote:NEELY, two years ago he played with Michalek who could skate.  Until very recently (last 3-4 games) he has been playing with a different Michalek who could not skate.  So, yeah, garbage.  And he did not play with Conacher or Condra two years ago.  You are talking about Greening.  Quite a few people have either said it straight out or at least implied that Greening has been piss poor since he got his new contract (I believe you were one of those people, talking about Greening and another player in a post back in November).

Greening has needed to be better for sure but saying he's a garbage winger is simply ignoring the issue. Michalek looked fantastic with Zibanejad for however long he was with him, that's not a 3, 4 game stretch recently. Michalek has had some game back for a while now so that really doesn't provide any kind of analysis of the Spezza/Michalek pairing.

Face it, Spezza is a step behind everyone at even strength and even then he's cheating and getting caught up ice almost on a shift by shift basis. That goal against Columbus the other night where he fed Da Costa is a perfect example. I didn't want to rip on him after what was a pretty good game and a big win but if that puck doesn't get put back into the zone to Spezza he's caught behind the net, in the 2nd period with the long change, and no chance of getting back into the play and being caught out there with Da Costa who is also not great without the puck. It worked out and lucky for him but that happens almost every single shift without the positive results.

No one is going to make Spezza a better player at this point on the offensive side of things because they never have the puck. I would be putting guys with speed on his wing as well if I was MacLean because Spezza is guaranteed to be the last one back 90% of the time. By the time all the work is done in their own end the wingers are dead tired because they just spent 45 seconds playing defense.

wprager wrote:Look, if Spezza wasn't being paid $ and wearing the 'C', if he was the team's 2nd line center or even a 2B, then there wouldn't be so much hatred in your posts.  You'd probably say the guy's injured again, so we should be really careful about giving him a long-term contract or the 'C'.

Tell me, you never commented on the earlier post about Neil -- in a game against the Leafs, when Kadri takes a run at one of ours, do we need Neil to score a goal or give a Diddle and make some hits?

Winning that game was what was needed. When I say respond I don't mean going out and punching Kadri out, respond means going out there and doing something on the positive end of things whether that's a big goal, a big hit, fight, play defensively, w/e. Something where you say "yah, great play, lets see the other guys follow". It's all relative, making yourself a factor is what needed to be done and Neil did that. Spezza... he didn't do a damn thing.

I never said "garbage" -- that was you. Michale looked better but hardly fantastic. Still couldn't score. And his skating getting to the 2-years-ago level was very, very recent. And even while he's been skating better he's still finding it hard to score -- it'll come, it's just taking time.

I disagree with the comment "No one is going to make Spezza a better player". Very early on in the season I noted how much time Turris/MacArthur were spending with Karlsson on the ice, versus Spezza. That's been rectified with electric results. Karlsson loves playing with Spezza -- they definitely have chemistry. That's as close as getting "a winger" for Spezza as we've come. Michalek coming around will help as well. And if they keep playing Zibanejad there, then you will see much better stats from Spezza's line.

NEELY wrote:

wprager wrote:Look, if Spezza wasn't being paid $ and wearing the 'C', if he was the team's 2nd line center or even a 2B, then there wouldn't be so much hatred in your posts.  You'd probably say the guy's injured again, so we should be really careful about giving him a long-term contract or the 'C'.

Tell me, you never commented on the earlier post about Neil -- in a game against the Leafs, when Kadri takes a run at one of ours, do we need Neil to score a goal or give a Diddle and make some hits?

Winning that game was what was needed.  When I say respond I don't mean going out and punching Kadri out, respond means going out there and doing something on the positive end of things whether that's a big goal, a big hit, fight, play defensively, w/e.  Something where you say "yah, great play, lets see the other guys follow".  It's all relative, making yourself a factor is what needed to be done and Neil did that.  Spezza... he didn't do a damn thing.

We needed Neil to come out and hit. You won't change my mind on that. The three points were great for Neil, and Neil only.

wprager wrote:

NEELY wrote:If you want to play devils advocate go right ahead but please say something or provide something that has a little substance.  Saying "well Spezza is a better player because he plays with Ryan, Turris, and MacArthur on the PP" while totally ignoring the circumstance surrounding what a power play actually is... well it's beyond grasping at straws.  

How come Spezza was awful with both Ryan and MacArthur when given the chance and they were playing at what had to be close to their very best?  There's a reason why those two are with Turris and there's a reason they have stayed together.

Come at me with some reasons or even statistics in this case of Spezza's play 5 on 5 where 75% or more of the game is played.  Please provide anything which would indicate his play has been anything close to acceptable with any winger on the team.

I'm not going to say that Spezza is playing well, or that he's playing up to expectations.  He's been bad way more than he's been good.  The lazy skating on the backcheck absolutely infuriates me.  In retrospect, giving him the 'C' was a mistake, but it was a decision that was forced on the team by Alfie's betrayal.

But I'm not going to blame the whole season and every loss and every bad goal and every missed assignment on one player, even if he *is* the Captain and highest paid player.  You are letting your emotions rule your posts, like always.  You've lost perspective.

That part is just wrong but w/e.

As for blaming him for every loss? Absolutely not but I am blaming the inconsistency of the team and how MacLean is forced to play certain guys with Spezza on Spezza himself. Now whether this is because of injury, lazyness, w/e else I do not know and at the end of the day it doesn't really matter. He isn't getting the job done and the teams play totally changes and guys get burnt out because the game requires a lot more effort without the puck and focus. It's like starring at the point of a needle when Spezza is on the ice, you can only concentrate for so long until you make a mistake. Add that in with the fact Ottawa's defense core is maybe the youngest in the NHL and is prone to mistakes to begin with because of that, they need their centers support and effort in their own zone.

Is every loss on him? Absolutely not. Is he the biggest issue and the reason for the Sens inconsistency all season? 100% yes. The game changes when he is in the lineup vs out of it. On the ice vs on the bench.

NEELY wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:

NEELY wrote:Honestly I have no idea which is why it's so frustrating.  There is just no way you can't look at the current Sens team and not come to the conclusion that Spezza's 5 on 5 play is the biggest reason for the teams struggles.  You can maybe make the argument that having perhaps the youngest blueline in the NHL is a major issue but for the most part since late Nov them have been solid.

I wouldn't really say the team is struggling.  It's annoying that we rely on one line + Zibanejad plus Spezza + Karlsson, but most teams have similar issues.  

I said a long time ago that I'd start looking at moving Spezza, but until that time we need at least one winger, possibly two.  

One line?  That Smith line has been fantastic since being thrown together, scored in 2 straight games, and totally carried the offense on Saturday.  That's a cop out.  Smith has been a more productive player than Spezza all year 5 on 5 playing with wingers who don't really score a ton to begin with.  That's a concerning circumstance as well.

There is no winger in the NHL that will help with Spezza... seriously if you go out and get a 30 goal scorer for Spezza it won't do any good if they are in their own zone well over 1/2 the time.

They'll combine for 30 goals the entire NHL year. They are what they are - they hit and that's about it. Smith is the 3rd liner of the bunch, maybe Greening can be a 3rd liner, but Neil's rightful place is on the 4th line getting 7 minutes a night - maybe 10.

wprager wrote:

NEELY wrote:

wprager wrote:Look, if Spezza wasn't being paid $ and wearing the 'C', if he was the team's 2nd line center or even a 2B, then there wouldn't be so much hatred in your posts.  You'd probably say the guy's injured again, so we should be really careful about giving him a long-term contract or the 'C'.

Tell me, you never commented on the earlier post about Neil -- in a game against the Leafs, when Kadri takes a run at one of ours, do we need Neil to score a goal or give a Diddle and make some hits?

Winning that game was what was needed.  When I say respond I don't mean going out and punching Kadri out, respond means going out there and doing something on the positive end of things whether that's a big goal, a big hit, fight, play defensively, w/e.  Something where you say "yah, great play, lets see the other guys follow".  It's all relative, making yourself a factor is what needed to be done and Neil did that.  Spezza... he didn't do a damn thing.

We needed Neil to come out and hit.  You won't change my mind on that.  The three points were great for Neil, and Neil only.

Yeah, that's another thing. Kadri should have been dead by the hand of Neil. Neil and to a much lesser extent Kassian, had the pulse of the game in their hands and they let Toronto take the momentum and energy. If you're a fighter and you see something like that - guess what? It's time to go.

Cussing obnoxious game that brought up memories of old wounds. Back when Alfie was around, the same Dung went down with the Leafs. It's not that big a deal when you really put it in perspective - a loss is a loss, but Diddle, what an obnoxious fanbase to lose to and what and important loss.

wprager wrote:I never said "garbage" -- that was you.  Michale looked better but hardly fantastic.  Still couldn't score.  And his skating getting to the 2-years-ago level was very, very recent.  And even while he's been skating better he's still finding it hard to score -- it'll come, it's just taking time.  

I disagree with the comment "No one is going to make Spezza a better player".  Very early on in the season I noted how much time Turris/MacArthur were spending with Karlsson on the ice, versus Spezza.  That's been rectified with electric results.  Karlsson loves playing with Spezza -- they definitely have chemistry.  That's as close as getting "a winger" for Spezza as we've come.  Michalek coming around will help as well.  And if they keep playing Zibanejad there, then you will see much better stats from Spezza's line.

I'm not going to sit here and pretend Michalek is earning his money because he isn't... that said with Zibenajad at least you could look at his game and say "yah, I'll take that if he isn't scoring 25-30 goals". They had the puck, cycled it well in the offensive zone, and controlled large portions of the play and weren't caught in their own zone the whole shift, every shift.

Spezza and Karlsson can look great together and score some highlight reel goals on a regular basis, no argument here. It's awesome to watch. The thing is in hockey they don't ask "how?" they ask "how many?". What good is a highlight reel goal if the other team scored 2 garbage ones because of guys (Spezza) not being hard on the backcheck or in his own zone. Sure, the goals they score look great but it's all for not if they can't figure out how to stop the other team from scoring more goals.

Point is no one other than a defensively reliable winger is going to help Spezza look or play better 5 on 5. He's either going to struggle to produce offensively or be a defensive liability... there's no middle ground, something will suffer be it his production or time in his own zone.

Everything right now is done in the hope Spezza turns it around, everything done is to for him. Moving Zibanejad to the wing despite the fact he's way better up the middle... done for Spezza. Going out and finding a winger and the cost of youth who might not resign... done for Spezza. Every decision being made at this point is done for Spezza when it's crystal clear he doesn't have the ability to play the 200 foot system that every other player buys into. I don't question his effort because I think he tries, he just doesn't have the ability to lead a team or the physical ability to play hard for 60 mins on every inch of that ice. He also makes it tough on the D.

SpezDispenser wrote:

wprager wrote:

NEELY wrote:

wprager wrote:Look, if Spezza wasn't being paid $ and wearing the 'C', if he was the team's 2nd line center or even a 2B, then there wouldn't be so much hatred in your posts.  You'd probably say the guy's injured again, so we should be really careful about giving him a long-term contract or the 'C'.

Tell me, you never commented on the earlier post about Neil -- in a game against the Leafs, when Kadri takes a run at one of ours, do we need Neil to score a goal or give a Diddle and make some hits?

Winning that game was what was needed.  When I say respond I don't mean going out and punching Kadri out, respond means going out there and doing something on the positive end of things whether that's a big goal, a big hit, fight, play defensively, w/e.  Something where you say "yah, great play, lets see the other guys follow".  It's all relative, making yourself a factor is what needed to be done and Neil did that.  Spezza... he didn't do a damn thing.

We needed Neil to come out and hit.  You won't change my mind on that.  The three points were great for Neil, and Neil only.

Yeah, that's another thing.  Kadri should have been dead by the hand of Neil.  Neil and to a much lesser extent Kassian, had the pulse of the game in their hands and they let Toronto take the momentum and energy.  If you're a fighter and you see something like that - guess what?  It's time to go.

Do you realize how wrong this statement is? Neil scores 2 and adds a helper in a 3-3 game and you want him to go out and take a penalty that could potentially cost his team the game? It wasn't time to go and (sorry) that's a stupid comment. The goal is to win the game at that moment, that's it. Tie game with 5 mins left is a winnable game and you don't take the dumb penalty.

The game was what was important at the time and other guys should have stepped up, not just Smith's line.

Right now that line has 23 goals combined... pretty sure they will score more than 30. That's a solid 3rd line on any team in the NHL because they give up nothing defensively for the most part, grind down the D, and can put in the odd goal.

NEELY wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:

wprager wrote:

NEELY wrote:

wprager wrote:Look, if Spezza wasn't being paid $ and wearing the 'C', if he was the team's 2nd line center or even a 2B, then there wouldn't be so much hatred in your posts.  You'd probably say the guy's injured again, so we should be really careful about giving him a long-term contract or the 'C'.

Tell me, you never commented on the earlier post about Neil -- in a game against the Leafs, when Kadri takes a run at one of ours, do we need Neil to score a goal or give a Diddle and make some hits?

Winning that game was what was needed.  When I say respond I don't mean going out and punching Kadri out, respond means going out there and doing something on the positive end of things whether that's a big goal, a big hit, fight, play defensively, w/e.  Something where you say "yah, great play, lets see the other guys follow".  It's all relative, making yourself a factor is what needed to be done and Neil did that.  Spezza... he didn't do a damn thing.

We needed Neil to come out and hit.  You won't change my mind on that.  The three points were great for Neil, and Neil only.

Yeah, that's another thing.  Kadri should have been dead by the hand of Neil.  Neil and to a much lesser extent Kassian, had the pulse of the game in their hands and they let Toronto take the momentum and energy.  If you're a fighter and you see something like that - guess what?  It's time to go.

Do you realize how wrong this statement is?  Neil scores 2 and adds a helper in a 3-3 game and you want him to go out and take a penalty that could potentially cost his team the game?  It wasn't time to go and (sorry) that's a stupid comment.  The goal is to win the game at that moment, that's it.  Tie game with 5 mins left is a winnable game and you don't take the dumb penalty.

The game was what was important at the time and other guys should have stepped up, not just Smith's line.

Right now that line has 23 goals combined... pretty sure they will score more than 30.  That's a solid 3rd line on any team in the NHL because they give up nothing defensively for the most part, grind down the D, and can put in the odd goal.  

Tie game with 5 minutes left in the 2nd. You let the little rat Diddler do that, you don't push back and you lose momentum, you lose the handle on the game and it was done. We were so amazingly lucky to have the overhead view on Neil's goal to tie it 3-3. We stopped being physical, we started backing into our own zone. We let them rape us - slowly.

SpezDispenser wrote:

NEELY wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:

wprager wrote:

NEELY wrote:

wprager wrote:Look, if Spezza wasn't being paid $ and wearing the 'C', if he was the team's 2nd line center or even a 2B, then there wouldn't be so much hatred in your posts.  You'd probably say the guy's injured again, so we should be really careful about giving him a long-term contract or the 'C'.

Tell me, you never commented on the earlier post about Neil -- in a game against the Leafs, when Kadri takes a run at one of ours, do we need Neil to score a goal or give a Diddle and make some hits?

Winning that game was what was needed.  When I say respond I don't mean going out and punching Kadri out, respond means going out there and doing something on the positive end of things whether that's a big goal, a big hit, fight, play defensively, w/e.  Something where you say "yah, great play, lets see the other guys follow".  It's all relative, making yourself a factor is what needed to be done and Neil did that.  Spezza... he didn't do a damn thing.

We needed Neil to come out and hit.  You won't change my mind on that.  The three points were great for Neil, and Neil only.

Yeah, that's another thing.  Kadri should have been dead by the hand of Neil.  Neil and to a much lesser extent Kassian, had the pulse of the game in their hands and they let Toronto take the momentum and energy.  If you're a fighter and you see something like that - guess what?  It's time to go.

Do you realize how wrong this statement is?  Neil scores 2 and adds a helper in a 3-3 game and you want him to go out and take a penalty that could potentially cost his team the game?  It wasn't time to go and (sorry) that's a stupid comment.  The goal is to win the game at that moment, that's it.  Tie game with 5 mins left is a winnable game and you don't take the dumb penalty.

The game was what was important at the time and other guys should have stepped up, not just Smith's line.

Right now that line has 23 goals combined... pretty sure they will score more than 30.  That's a solid 3rd line on any team in the NHL because they give up nothing defensively for the most part, grind down the D, and can put in the odd goal.  

Tie game with 5 minutes left in the 2nd.  You let the little rat Diddler do that, you don't push back and you lose momentum, you lose the handle on the game and it was done.  We were so amazingly lucky to have the overhead view on Neil's goal to tie it 3-3.  We stopped being physical, we started backing into our own zone.  We let them rape us - slowly.

Right in the bum, eh Spezzer?   

Not arguing that the Sens didn't respond but the Smith line and especially Neil sure did. The goal that night was to win the game, not to punch Kadri's face in... they failed. Spezza being the captain did nothing in a physical manner, nothing in a skillful manner, nothing in an emotional manner to get the Sens going and stay on track. That to me is the most concerning thing in that game.

I can take a mistake like Gryba made, it wasn't because of a lack of effort... sh*t happens and you learn from it. The lack of response is what is the most concerning thing and that starts with your captain. He did nothing.