DEADLINE 2015: Value of Sens Players

NEELY wrote:http://www.echl.com/record-93-former-echl-players-on-nhl-opening-day-rosters-p187537

Article is a little old but still holds a ton of weight.  People look at the ECHL like some sort of joke league where players go to die, it isn't.  It's a viable option for organizations with deep prospect depth and an option for young professional goaltenders to play a lot of games without the pressure of performing and winning right away.  

fair points. I just felt he was coming in from calgary to challenge for the starting role but didn't make back-up. but you're right, he probably sees more minutes in the ECHL. it's been a while since we've heard much talk from the organization about our goaltending depth and their progression.

Exactly, there is no use to being a backup in the AHL, none. It's his first pro season so there is no reason at all to throw him to the wolves. Now... next year if he's not in the AHL that's a serious cause for concern.

NEELY wrote:

Ev wrote:

NEELY wrote:I don't think Murray, Cameron, and the entire organization is BSing anyone when the say they want Anderson in the net for the next 4, 5, 6 seasons.  Not saying Lehner will be traded but if I had to put my money on one guy moving it's him.  I disagree with it but I think that's the way I think it plays out.

In the system right now they have Dreidger, Hogberg, and Hammond... Hammond might be able to be a back up for Anderson going forward if they trade Lehner or the can just sign a guy looking for some work.  Dreidger and Hogberg both have NHL potential and will get a ton of time in that 4, 5 seasons Anderson would be the starter.  

It's obviously not that cut and dry but there is nothing to say that they don't believe in some other gus in the organization as much as the do Lehner at this point even if their arrival will be a little later than Lehner's would be otherwise.

They have never actually said that...or anything close to that.

Murray has pretty much come out and said Anderson is their guy, not a lot to suggest otherwise other than the assumption a lot of people made (including myself) that he was signed to trade.  

As for the Cameron comment, you're right he nor has MacLean ever said it but actions speak a lot louder than words... Cameron is a guy that plays the young guys and he has been playing Anderson as much as possible and said he will continue to do so down the stretch.

Everyone knows my opinion on Lehner so this is just pure unbias thoughts on my end based on the actions of the team and the words of the people in the organization.

Cameron is playing anderson because the organization is still focused on short term winning. If they sell a lot of guys at the deadline you will see a shift.

K

Flo The Action wrote:I thought Driedger couldn't cut the AHL roster this year? Isn't playing in their affiliate?

He's not doing any better with the Icemen. He only played in 2 games with Bingo this season, not sure if there was an injury or what, though.

NEELY wrote:

They have never actually said that...or anything close to that.

Murray has pretty much come out and said Anderson is their guy, not a lot to suggest otherwise other than the assumption a lot of people made (including myself) that he was signed to trade.  

As for the Cameron comment, you're right he nor has MacLean ever said it but actions speak a lot louder than words... Cameron is a guy that plays the young guys and he has been playing Anderson as much as possible and said he will continue to do so down the stretch.

Everyone knows my opinion on Lehner so this is just pure unbias thoughts on my end based on the actions of the team and the words of the people in the organization. [/quote]

Anderson's contrat was *absolutely* structured to allow them to trade him when Lehner was ready. Remember when he signed it. Lehner was very much the "golden boy" still. Even at the start of this year, they were close to 50/50 in starts, until it became fairly obvious that Lehner was simply struggling. Getting married and having a kid (at a fairly early age), Alfie moving off -- those things probably have affected him. Don't forget also that he *was* injured on that play behind the net, he just didn't go on IR.

He'd be fine if handed the reins as a full-time #1, but right now the organization is suffering from post-season delusions and don't think they can afford to let him play out of his slump. Once they they realize they are out of it things will change.

K.

NEELY wrote:http://www.echl.com/record-93-former-echl-players-on-nhl-opening-day-rosters-p187537

Article is a little old but still holds a ton of weight.  People look at the ECHL like some sort of joke league where players go to die, it isn't.  It's a viable option for organizations with deep prospect depth and an option for young professional goaltenders to play a lot of games without the pressure of performing and winning right away.  

Further to that, here's an excellent article on the differences between the NHL, AHL and ECHL from a goalie's perspective who's played in all three leagues:
http://ingoalmag.com/general/how-do-the-nhl-ahl-and-echl-differ-a-goalies-perspective/

Given my experience, people often ask what the difference is between leagues, namely the ECHL, AHL, and NHL. The short answer is this: money. To put it in quick perspective, minimum salaries for the 2009/10 season are $400/week plus housing expenses in the ECHL, $36,500 for the AHL, and $500,000 in the NHL.

But he goes into a lot more, of course:

The goal of NHL teams is to develop players for the AHL team, and hopefully down the road, their big club. However, the goal for ECHL franchises (almost all are privately owned) is to win hockey games and make money, and as such, putting the best team possible on the ice is in their best interest.

So the AHL is a development league. Player salaries are paid for by the NHL club even though most teams are privately owned and are there to make money. Coaching decisions and player personnel decisions are pretty much done by the NHL (case in point the Sens' AGM being the BSens' GM).

All that said, though, if you have three goalies in Bingo and you send one down to the ECHL, it's not because he is the best of the three. He may not be the "worst". You don't keep the second "best" as the backup in the AHL because you want him to get starts to develop ("best" and "worst" are awful words in this context -- really talking more about starter prospect vs. backup prospect). Still, Driedger was sent down to Icemen instead of Hammond so that's not nothing.

A 26, 27 year old goaltender who has seen time in the NHL, completed 4 years of college, and a full year in the AHL was kept over a 20 year old in his first professional season... so yah that amounts to pretty close to nothing.

Lehner was 19 in his first pro year. So?

Clearly they felt he was not ready for the AHL. Not sure of the reason -- they only gave him 2 starts, both of which he won.

wprager wrote:Lehner was 19 in his first pro year.  So?  

Clearly they felt he was not ready for the AHL.  Not sure of the reason -- they only gave him 2 starts, both of which he won.  

Hammond is a better goalie right now... what's there to debate? They want Dreidger to start and play games, best place for that is the ECHL.

Lehner was splitting with Brust if I remember and was sitting on the bench a lot of the time as well... took a 3-1 series hole to climb out of for Lehner to get/earn the job.

Either way Hammond has earned the job in the AHL and the job as the next call up in the net, Dreidger hasn't. There is nothing to read into, nothing to really break down, it's completely transparent.

NEELY wrote:

wprager wrote:Lehner was 19 in his first pro year.  So?  

Clearly they felt he was not ready for the AHL.  Not sure of the reason -- they only gave him 2 starts, both of which he won.  

Hammond is a better goalie right now... what's there to debate? They want Dreidger to start and play games, best place for that is the ECHL.

Lehner was splitting with Brust if I remember and was sitting on the bench a lot of the time as well... took a 3-1 series hole to climb out of for Lehner to get/earn the job.

Either way Hammond has earned the job in the AHL and the job as the next call up in the net, Dreidger hasn't. There is nothing to read into, nothing to really break down, it's completely transparent.

Any deal involving Lehner or Anderson will likely have a goalie coming back. Hammond and Dreidger both aren't close to NHL calibre..yet.

Well yah, I don't think I ever said or suggested either guy is ready for a backup role in the NHL. Just a conversation comparing the two guys in Ottawa's system.

I'd also be worried about trading another young goalie considering how we ate it on the Bishop trade.

Depends what the trade is... see other thread for details.

and Bishop has already fallen back to earth

Bishop is solid but there is more of a book out on him now and while he's still a legit #1 guy he's no better then the 2 guys Ottawa has now.

After last night's Dallas game, I've come up with some thoughts:

1) I am cool trading Lehner. 4+ goals in 5 straight games or something. Granted, he's only 23 but Andy is miles ahead of him and I think we can add a back up goalie for cheapers, and Lehner's trade value is still pretty high.

2) Can't blame Hoffman for the 4-3 goal. Yes, he turned over the puck but Phillips has to know his responsibilities and where he needs to be on the ice.

3) Neil and Phillips need to go. Yes, they're long time Sens and do a lot for the community. But Ottawa is not a playoff team and these guys deserve a chance to win, and are preventing the next generation of players from cracking the roster.

4) I'd be cool giving Christ Stewart a test run. At this point he's worth a 3rd or 4th rd draft pick at the deadline. I would make the trade, try him out with Turris and MacArthur, and if the chemistry isn't there don't re-sign him. You don't want to sign him in the off-season and be stuck with that contract if things don't work out.

5) Mark Stone is awesome. He will be a top-six player in this league for many years to come. Just not sure he's there yet. Try Stewart with Mac and Turris and if he flops, that's Stone's spot for next year.

6) BFR and Mika are showing a ton of chemistry. If we do make that BFR type trade, I do hope it's for Hall and they put him on what is now Ottawa's top line. I'd be okay giving up Lehner, Lazar, Wiercioch and Ottawa's first for Hall and Fasth.

7) Hoffman will be elite. I think he comes back after this off-season (and a new contract) more focused. He's shown that he can play the 200 ft game. He just needs to find some consistency. Putting him with Stone and Da Costa next season I think will result in three really good offensive lines, with Michalek-Pageau-Chiasson adding some grit and toughness.

8) Prince/Puempel. One of these guys will be on the Sens roster next season, meaning Ottawa will need to make room. Lots of players to clear out at the deadline this year (Smith, Legwand, Phillips, Neil)