GAME DAY: New York Rangers @ Ottawa Senators :: 7:30pm ET :: Tue. Mar. 18th, 2014

Hoags wrote:Boyle doesn't want to leave San Jose, Ottawa had their chance to get him when he wanted to come here.  Heck he was waiting in town for a call.

I think Murray will get someone unexpected to fill that role, although publicly he seems to think our D is fine just needs to grow up.  That might have changed.

Depends on the budget he is given I guess.

ya but sjs doesn't want to give him more then a year. unless things change we'll have a good chance to get him.

Hoags wrote:Boyle doesn't want to leave San Jose, Ottawa had their chance to get him when he wanted to come here.  Heck he was waiting in town for a call.

I think Murray will get someone unexpected to fill that role, although publicly he seems to think our D is fine just needs to grow up.  That might have changed.

Depends on the budget he is given I guess.

Boyle is going to want one last good contract and he isn't going to get it from San Jose.  Maybe he resigns but he is still the player Ottawa should be targeting for the blueline.

To Ev's point of him declining, yah, he's perhaps lost a small step but still a very solid NHLer and like I said you are paying for the player he is, not the player he was.  3 x 5 is probably about right for a guy like that and it's also money invested in the blueline as a whole and the team.  Again, the team is void of leadership and Boyle has been around long enough that he will give the Sens instant credibility and help the youth along. 

Might even be a guy you trade for his rights... Gryba for his rights kind of thing.

NEELY wrote:

Hoags wrote:Boyle doesn't want to leave San Jose, Ottawa had their chance to get him when he wanted to come here.  Heck he was waiting in town for a call.

I think Murray will get someone unexpected to fill that role, although publicly he seems to think our D is fine just needs to grow up.  That might have changed.

Depends on the budget he is given I guess.

Boyle is going to want one last good contract and he isn't going to get it from San Jose.  Maybe he resigns but he is still the player Ottawa should be targeting for the blueline.

To Ev's point of him declining, yah, he's perhaps lost a small step but still a very solid NHLer and like I said you are paying for the player he is, not the player he was.  3 x 5 is probably about right for a guy like that and it's also money invested in the blueline as a whole and the team.  Again, the team is void of leadership and Boyle has been around long enough that he will give the Sens instant credibility and help the youth along. 

Might even be a guy you trade for his rights... Gryba for his rights kind of thing.

i just said that a few days ago. although i saw it more as a conditional pick. but ya maybe gryba if a deal is worked out behind closed door ahead.

I think Boyle wants to win, and I think he'll sign somewhere where he has that chance (probably in SJ). If I were him, I'd take a one year contract in SJ over a 3 year deal here.

Yeah, I was thinking that too.

tim1_2 wrote:I think Boyle wants to win, and I think he'll sign somewhere where he has that chance (probably in SJ).  If I were him, I'd take a one year contract in SJ over a 3 year deal here.

I wouldn't turn down 10 million dollars, lol.

I dunno, I think he wants to win again. He'd probably take a pay cut for a year, then go out onto the open market, but who knows...

At 36 risk injury, retirement, w/e else on top of 10 million dollars.  That said it's probably more like 7-8 million based on taxes in California as well.

Come home Boyle!

You guys are also assuming that Melnyk will be willing/able to pony up $15M for a 37 year old d-man. Maybe it depends if Spezza goes away.

tim1_2 wrote:You guys are also assuming that Melnyk will be willing/able to pony up $15M for a 37 year old d-man.  Maybe it depends if Spezza goes away.

We're taking on pretty close to the 4 mil Spezza will make in a trade back I would assume. I doubt it will have anything to do with it.

NEELY wrote:

wprager wrote:

NEELY wrote:Spezza does what he wants, always has and always will.

Too easy.  Problem is much more than "Spezza does what he wants".

More problems then that but like myself, Todd White last night, and a lot of others have been saying (which you seem to ignore for some reason) is that when you have a guy like Spezza doing one thing, the coach preaching to the rest of the team something else, it leads to conflict and inconsistency in not only the play on ice but the message being sent and the development of the players.

You can't have a player doing one thing (especially the captain) and expect everyone else to fall in line.

On the contrary -- it's guys like you who are much more likely to ignore things if you think getting rid of Spezza is all that stands between now and a parade. Worst case scenario could be we get rid of Spezza, and everyone conveniently uses him as a scapegoat and other serious issues are left alone.

I think everyone agrees that Spezza is not the only problem here. I think it's a huge issue if you have players making $2+M a year who need to see the guy with the 'C' working hard before they work hard themselves. You say that if Spezza looks someone in the eyes and tells them they need to work harder that player will just roll their eyes because Spezza isn't doing that himself (btw, that's not entirely true)? If we have that kind of player in the room then I want that player gone!

Or did you mean that Spezza simply cannot look someone in the eyes and give them the hard message because he needs to hear that same message himself? If that's the case, then, surely, there is someone else in that room that can deliver this message? I honestly don't think that Alfredsson ever delivered that kind of message. Maybe Neil, maybe Phillips. And if we don't have *anyone* in that room who can deliver that message then we need to swap out 23 players, not just one.

Even if you don't have a single player who is willing and capable to look someone in the eyes and tell them to work harder, there's still the coach. He can tell them to work harder and reward them with ice time when they do. MacLean preaches accountability but practices croneyism. You can call it "leaning on the vets" but the point is that Anderson, Phillips and Spezza have all had bad seasons in one way or another. Neil hasn't been nearly as effective as we'd like him to be but that would be fine if he was playing 4th liner minutes -- he's not. Yong players getting big contracts with an entitlement chip on their shoulders need to be put in their places; Cowen/Greening/Condra and even Smith to a lesser extent needed to be scratched when they deserved it.

None of this was done, and I have this big fear that getting rid of Spezza will give MacLean an out -- I never wanted him as Captain, I knew this would happen. MacLean has made some very bad decisions. Even last year, how many times did we raise our eyebrows and then said "...but I trust the Walrus", because all of his (many) questionable decisions appeared to be working out? We keep forgetting that we were second in the league in GAA with pretty much two rookies taking over a Vezina-calibre Anderson who set a modern-era record for SV% in a season. How many of those "interesting" choices were simply bad decisions covered up by superb goaltending?

NEELY wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:Dear Lord, why must we have Phillips as captain?  What in the world has ever given anyone evidence that he's captain material?  I'm sincerely asking.  15 years in the mix and he's the guy you choose?  Why, because of his tenure?

Also, you talk about guys who march to their own drum in terms of coaching...is Karlsson one of those guys?

Karlsson needs to be reigned in a bit for sure, that will happen with maturity.  Spezza and Alfie each got a decade plus, Karlsson deserve more than 3, 4 years.

As for Phillips, you make him the captain for the reasons I listed.  Say what you want but he leads by example off the ice, will take the heat for on ice play if the team struggles, and he's a player everyone can approach, especially the prospects/rookies/younger players.  It's Karlsson's team but you let him gradually fill into the role of team leader, can't throw him to the wolves right after what happened this year.  In 2 years when Phillips is probably done (even if he isn't) you give Karlsson the "C".  You are 3 years removed from Alfie and he's retired, the Spezza debacle is long forgotten, the team at that point will have a new identity, and the core will be solidly in place.  Phillips is the guy to make that transition with because of these things as well... the team isn't leaning on Phillips to win games, to make a difference each night, etc, etc, etc.  If Phillips doesn't screw up people will be happy, simple as that.  Right now that's what you want the Senators captain to be, a guy who is somewhat forgotten on the ice but people will go to off it.  This IMO is an important part going forward.

Karlsson needs to be reigned in by a more forceful voice in way of a defensive coach.... Nothing against Reeds.. but someone like Richardson, Galley, Cunneyworth.. someone who has been through it all for a long time and has really good experience.. someone the players can really look up to..

Hoags wrote:

NEELY wrote:
That's the problem right there with Murray and Spezza.  Murray bet on the wrong horse.

There some media reports/tweets that the decision was a tough one and they had reservations about their decision and probably prayed it won't blow up in their face and that Spezza becomes Yzerman.  Odd thing was it was a management decision and not MacLean.  Maybe even the owner threw his hat in.

Murray probably had a long talk with Spezza in his office(more than one) basically "you better not Diddle this up".

I also thought some team members were questioned as well...

Opposing teams know how to beat the Sens. A hard forecheck on the defense.. who has trouble getting the puck out.. and the forwards aren't much better.

The coaching staff has gone over this again and again and again and again, and the players just don't get it, or can't get it. Seems like they panic and make stupid mistakes.

If the players can't get it... then get new players. I really wish it was that simple.

Watching Ryan last night, he is really hurting. One play was him skating in front of Lundqvist chasing the puck.. and he had a bad wince of pain... When this team is mathematically eliminated, then get his surgery then... don't wait until the offseason...

The only thing Spezza should be captain of is the social committee.

wprager wrote:

NEELY wrote:

wprager wrote:

NEELY wrote:Spezza does what he wants, always has and always will.

Too easy.  Problem is much more than "Spezza does what he wants".

More problems then that but like myself, Todd White last night, and a lot of others have been saying (which you seem to ignore for some reason) is that when you have a guy like Spezza doing one thing, the coach preaching to the rest of the team something else, it leads to conflict and inconsistency in not only the play on ice but the message being sent and the development of the players.

You can't have a player doing one thing (especially the captain) and expect everyone else to fall in line.

On the contrary -- it's guys like you who are much more likely to ignore things if you think getting rid of Spezza is all that stands between now and a parade.  Worst case scenario could be we get rid of Spezza, and everyone conveniently uses him as a scapegoat and other serious issues are left alone.

I think everyone agrees that Spezza is not the only problem here.  I think it's a huge issue if you have players making $2+M a year who need to see the guy with the 'C' working hard before they work hard themselves.  You say that if Spezza looks someone in the eyes and tells them they need to work harder that player will just roll their eyes because Spezza isn't doing that himself (btw, that's not entirely true)?  If we have that kind of player in the room then I want that player gone!  

Or did you mean that Spezza simply cannot look someone in the eyes and give them the hard message because he needs to hear that same message himself?  If that's the case, then, surely, there is someone else in that room that can deliver this message?  I honestly don't think that Alfredsson ever delivered that kind of message.  Maybe Neil, maybe Phillips.   And if we don't have *anyone* in that room who can deliver that message then we need to swap out 23 players, not just one.

Even if you don't have a single player who is willing and capable to look someone in the eyes and tell them to work harder, there's still the coach.  He can tell them to work harder and reward them with ice time when they do.  MacLean preaches accountability but practices croneyism.  You can call it "leaning on the vets" but the point is that Anderson, Phillips and Spezza have all had bad seasons in one way or another.  Neil hasn't been nearly as effective as we'd like him to be but that would be fine if he was playing 4th liner minutes -- he's not.  Yong players getting big contracts with an entitlement chip on their shoulders need to be put in their places; Cowen/Greening/Condra and even Smith to a lesser extent needed to be scratched when they deserved it.  

None of this was done, and I have this big fear that getting rid of Spezza will give MacLean an out -- I never wanted him as Captain, I knew this would happen.  MacLean has made some very bad decisions.  Even last year, how many times did we raise our eyebrows and then said "...but I trust the Walrus", because all of his (many) questionable decisions appeared to be working out? We keep forgetting that we were second in the league in GAA with pretty much two rookies taking over a Vezina-calibre Anderson who set a modern-era record for SV% in a season.  How many of those "interesting" choices were simply bad decisions covered up by superb goaltending?

Has nothing to do with working hard, they all work hard, even Spezza.  Working smart is something else along with being disciplined as a team and individuals along with everyone being on the same page.  Spezza as the captain prevents that.  Until Spezza is moved there will be a lot of different people on a lot of different pages.

Also don't think anyone suggested the Sens without Spezza are going to be playing for the cup next year... but if they want a chance sooner they need to focus on the development of the team and not worry about Spezza turning into Yzerman.  The Spezza ship has sailed, he is what he is and it's a player a team cannot win a championship with, at least him as the #1 center and captain.

sandysensfan wrote:

NEELY wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:Dear Lord, why must we have Phillips as captain?  What in the world has ever given anyone evidence that he's captain material?  I'm sincerely asking.  15 years in the mix and he's the guy you choose?  Why, because of his tenure?

Also, you talk about guys who march to their own drum in terms of coaching...is Karlsson one of those guys?

Karlsson needs to be reigned in a bit for sure, that will happen with maturity.  Spezza and Alfie each got a decade plus, Karlsson deserve more than 3, 4 years.

As for Phillips, you make him the captain for the reasons I listed.  Say what you want but he leads by example off the ice, will take the heat for on ice play if the team struggles, and he's a player everyone can approach, especially the prospects/rookies/younger players.  It's Karlsson's team but you let him gradually fill into the role of team leader, can't throw him to the wolves right after what happened this year.  In 2 years when Phillips is probably done (even if he isn't) you give Karlsson the "C".  You are 3 years removed from Alfie and he's retired, the Spezza debacle is long forgotten, the team at that point will have a new identity, and the core will be solidly in place.  Phillips is the guy to make that transition with because of these things as well... the team isn't leaning on Phillips to win games, to make a difference each night, etc, etc, etc.  If Phillips doesn't screw up people will be happy, simple as that.  Right now that's what you want the Senators captain to be, a guy who is somewhat forgotten on the ice but people will go to off it.  This IMO is an important part going forward.

Karlsson needs to be reigned in by a more forceful voice in way of a defensive coach....  Nothing against Reeds.. but someone like Richardson, Galley, Cunneyworth..  someone who has been through it all for a long time and has really good experience.. someone the players can really look up to..

I doubt richardson makes the move back up as assistant. if anything he's getting promoted to head coaching but likely not here.