GAME DAY: Ottawa Senators vs Montreal Canadiens - 7:30pmET - FRI Jan. 21 2011

Big Ev wrote:
Since when? What has he done to show he's such a sharp hockey mind?

Dude, he took this exact roster to 5th in the East last year without their top sniper who was traded for an injured soldier and a defect.

SpezDispenser wrote:

Big Ev wrote:
Since when? What has he done to show he's such a sharp hockey mind?

Dude, he took this exact roster to 5th in the East last year without their top sniper who was traded for an injured soldier and a defect.

He's also stubbornly refusing to call timely timeouts (he started doing this, recently, but took a while), playing favorites, constantly juggling lines, not putting Gonchar/Karlsson on their off-sides for the PP, not doing anything to fix the PP, sticking with same old boring choices in the shootouts -- I could go on, really. I liked his intensity when he first came on the scene, and he got the job done. Then in last year's playoffs he got out-coached by Bylsma pretty badly. I figured he was still fresh, and he'd learn. But the too-many-men penalties continued, wrong players got sat out (our three worst D-men this year have been Phillips, Gonchar and Kuba -- how many games have they sat out, combined?), he continued saying "We're doing fine, just not getting the bounces" when *clearly* things were not fine.

Anyhow, didn't really mean to bash Clouston, and I'd be fine if he stayed, really. Like I already mentioned, he *has* started calling timeouts, he *did* insert Karlsson in the shootout, the PP *did* manage to get to #11 in the league before Spezza went down (and they had started out horribly, too), and the too-many-men penalties have decreased significantly. He is improving, but this team is not. A lot of this is on the payers (Regin? Foligno in the first 25 games, the afore-mentioned D-men) adn the whole mess of a goaltending situation (which is no Murray).

SpezDispenser wrote:

Big Ev wrote:
Since when? What has he done to show he's such a sharp hockey mind?

Dude, he took this exact roster to 5th in the East last year without their top sniper who was traded for an injured soldier and a defect.

That makes him a sharp hockey mind? He has taken the exact same team to 3rd worst in the conference. He's an average coach, and he makes moves that just scream inexperience time and time again. Plus he comes off as a hard-Donkey most of the time.

SpezDispenser wrote:

SeawaySensFan wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:Definitely. Time to trade a boatload of players and let Clouston run with the team until the end of the year, what the heck else can we do?

I saw an awful lot of good shifts last night from Ottawa, actually. Split-second mistakes by individuals are hurting this team more than anything. I have a real tough time blaming the coach except for the fact that he scratches the wrong players.

By the way, a lot of giveaways and turnovers DO NOT result in goals against. Imagine. As I said, "Smelliott" has to face at least one breakaway per game plus all the giveaways in front of his net, plus all the odd-man rushes. Signing Nabokov would be a nice audition for next season but he won't make the players in front of him any better.

Yeah, I struggle with Clouston some times. We all know how sharp a hockey mind he is. This is a disaster of Titanic proportions, maybe he's not at all to blame.

Furthermore, if the players are actually tuning him out, then they should be moved and a new, fresh set of players should be brought it. I think it's pretty clear that the players no longer really hold any sway. Most of them will be hard to trade FFS. Maybe Clouston gets a fresh look next season - a mulligan if you will.

If Murray makes the right moves at the deadline, it could change his status as well. I assume we all want him drafting for us this year, maybe it's time to see how he handles this deadline - although, admittedly there's a lot at stake. This is where if I was Melnyk, I'd tell Bryan and Tim not to Cuss this one up if they want a chance in hell of having a job here next season and assess the trade deadline with a microscope.

I personally don't think Clouston is the main problem. He does have some issues yes.. but this mess is on the shoulders of the players.

The young guys work hard for Clouston -- play hard in games and work their butts off. It's the veterans who are 'pulling' this team down. They should be outright ashamed of their effort and desire. If these veterans have quit on this coach like the others -- then shame on them.. Show them the door.

But right now I can't see any team in the league taking any of these veteran players that Murray wants to move. I would really not be surprised if a 4th pick or lower would be the going rate for any of the Sens players right now.
The young players won't (and should not) be moved.

Sens may be stuck with all of these players until the end of the year when they leave for nothing.

Butler however looked good this time. It appears he is starting to learn the pro game and did not look out of place. If some of the other young prospects can develop like he did then that looks good for the future.

Landeskog... here we come. Welcome to "Sweden" east.

Isles got Nabacov and should improve. NJ is playing much better.. so it looks like bottom of the conference for the Sens. Now just to get Edmonton out of the way... and first overall... YEAH.

Big Ev wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:

Big Ev wrote:
Since when? What has he done to show he's such a sharp hockey mind?

Dude, he took this exact roster to 5th in the East last year without their top sniper who was traded for an injured soldier and a defect.

That makes him a sharp hockey mind? He has taken the exact same team to 3rd worst in the conference. He's an average coach, and he makes moves that just scream inexperience time and time again. Plus he comes off as a hard-Donkey most of the time.

Yeah, not too sure why people are battling so hard for Clouston as this point, the guy is as average as they come, he'll be no big loss, trust me.

LethalLehner wrote:Leave the coaching staff as is so that we get a high pick. Get Melnyk to speak to the media indicating that we are "coasting" for the rest of the season but that a rebuild is coming this summer. Provide discounts on tickets for the remainder of the season (e.g. more metro family nights or subway nights) to ensure seats get filled (some people will come to the games just to watch hockey if it is more affordable). Start to build some hype around the draft and the rebuild that will take place to get/keep people interested. Provide discounts for people that renew season tickets. There my GM SIM thoughts are complete.

Really...

So what do you say to someone like me, who paid 8,000. for tickets to a team that everyone was saying was a playoff team and Melnyk was selling had a shot to the Stanely Cup (i suspected differently though). So anyone else buying now gets a discount and I get bubkiss? Um..no thanks. I don't like the idea of coasting to get a good pick. If that's what happens then fine, but intentionally leaving a coach in place, or not brining in players to make the team better just to get a better pick is the same as saying you're losing intentionally. You think the players will want to be here if that's the case? If they have tuned Clouston out and you don't replace him yet everyone knows that's the case they you're telling them we want you to lose and for these guys, that's unacceptable.

That's as ridiculous a suggestion as Hiring a new coach and GM how only to replace them in the offseason...

22_4_ever wrote:

LethalLehner wrote:Leave the coaching staff as is so that we get a high pick. Get Melnyk to speak to the media indicating that we are "coasting" for the rest of the season but that a rebuild is coming this summer. Provide discounts on tickets for the remainder of the season (e.g. more metro family nights or subway nights) to ensure seats get filled (some people will come to the games just to watch hockey if it is more affordable). Start to build some hype around the draft and the rebuild that will take place to get/keep people interested. Provide discounts for people that renew season tickets. There my GM SIM thoughts are complete.

Really...

So what do you say to someone like me, who paid 8,000. for tickets to a team that everyone was saying was a playoff team and Melnyk was selling had a shot to the Stanely Cup (i suspected differently though). So anyone else buying now gets a discount and I get bubkiss? Um..no thanks. I don't like the idea of coasting to get a good pick. If that's what happens then fine, but intentionally leaving a coach in place, or not brining in players to make the team better just to get a better pick is the same as saying you're losing intentionally. You think the players will want to be here if that's the case? If they have tuned Clouston out and you don't replace him yet everyone knows that's the case they you're telling them we want you to lose and for these guys, that's unacceptable.

That's as ridiculous a suggestion as Hiring a new coach and GM how only to replace them in the offseason...

I believe he addressed your bolded complaint.

Big Ev wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:

Big Ev wrote:
Since when? What has he done to show he's such a sharp hockey mind?

Dude, he took this exact roster to 5th in the East last year without their top sniper who was traded for an injured soldier and a defect.

That makes him a sharp hockey mind? He has taken the exact same team to 3rd worst in the conference. He's an average coach, and he makes moves that just scream inexperience time and time again. Plus he comes off as a hard-Donkey most of the time.

Makes him a sharp coach to come into a tough situation with that weiner Heatley demanding out and still coach his team to a top 5 finish. This year has been horrendous - and I totally agree that he's made some very poor decisions, but at the same time, he's been given very little to work with. A lot of it's bad luck IMO, like Gonchar blowing arse, Regin not being offensively productive, Foligno not scoring until recently, Kuba busting his leg then coming back and playing like arse, Michalek taking longer than expected to come back from knee surgery, Kovalev coming back from knee surgery and sucking, Fisher being terrible for 20 games (although, this is as much Clouston's fault as anyone's IMO), Alfredsson looking like he's 58 or injured, Spezza injured, Leclaire broken, Elliott not being able to hack it (who would?).

Oh God... This is a nightmare.

22_4_ever wrote:

LethalLehner wrote:Leave the coaching staff as is so that we get a high pick. Get Melnyk to speak to the media indicating that we are "coasting" for the rest of the season but that a rebuild is coming this summer. Provide discounts on tickets for the remainder of the season (e.g. more metro family nights or subway nights) to ensure seats get filled (some people will come to the games just to watch hockey if it is more affordable). Start to build some hype around the draft and the rebuild that will take place to get/keep people interested. Provide discounts for people that renew season tickets. There my GM SIM thoughts are complete.

Really...

So what do you say to someone like me, who paid 8,000. for tickets to a team that everyone was saying was a playoff team and Melnyk was selling had a shot to the Stanely Cup (i suspected differently though). So anyone else buying now gets a discount and I get bubkiss? Um..no thanks. I don't like the idea of coasting to get a good pick. If that's what happens then fine, but intentionally leaving a coach in place, or not brining in players to make the team better just to get a better pick is the same as saying you're losing intentionally. You think the players will want to be here if that's the case? If they have tuned Clouston out and you don't replace him yet everyone knows that's the case they you're telling them we want you to lose and for these guys, that's unacceptable.

That's as ridiculous a suggestion as Hiring a new coach and GM how only to replace them in the offseason...

I would say check your facts. Everyone was saying they were a 10-12 team in the East. Everyone on here was, hindsight, wrong. Melnyk is a fan and cheerleader. Trust me, he's losing a heck of a lot more than your $8K. And if you are smart you'd be selling your tickets for the Habs/Leafs games at a premium and making up at least some of your original investment.

At this point in the season we are getting some exciting games (Anaheim, Islanders barn-burner). Changing the coach or the GM or bringing in a better goalie will not make a more exciting on-ice product. That can be done by bringing up more kids and resting more veterans.

SpezDispenser wrote:

Big Ev wrote:

That makes him a sharp hockey mind? He has taken the exact same team to 3rd worst in the conference. He's an average coach, and he makes moves that just scream inexperience time and time again. Plus he comes off as a hard-Donkey most of the time.

Makes him a sharp coach to come into a tough situation with that weiner Heatley demanding out and still coach his team to a top 5 finish. This year has been horrendous - and I totally agree that he's made some very poor decisions, but at the same time, he's been given very little to work with. A lot of it's bad luck IMO, like Gonchar blowing arse, Regin not being offensively productive, Foligno not scoring until recently, Kuba busting his leg then coming back and playing like arse, Michalek taking longer than expected to come back from knee surgery, Kovalev coming back from knee surgery and sucking, Fisher being terrible for 20 games (although, this is as much Clouston's fault as anyone's IMO), Alfredsson looking like he's 58 or injured, Spezza injured, Leclaire broken, Elliott not being able to hack it (who would?).

Oh God... This is a nightmare.

On the one hand you can say that everyone has sucked arse, and it's the situation that's the problem, and not Clouston. But if everyone is sucking like they are, don't you think it's Clouston that could be causing this?

The entire team wouldn't at the same time regress just like that for an inconceivable reason, just magically everyone sucks. A few of those you are right, the injuries, Alfie's aging and not being as quick/fast, Regin's sophomore slump. But I think a lot of it has to do with Clouston's poor coaching. I don't think Phillips has regressed that much, his crappiness i attribute to Clouston. Clouston expects him to be playing with similar offensive savvy and skill as Karlsson, but that simply is not the case. Phillips doesn't have magic hands, and is not as fast. So in a system where our defense has very little support, and Phillips goes back to get the puck, all the opposing team has to do is forecheck hard. With our team already moving up the ice, and not supporting Philly, of course he's going to give the puck away.

Or how about Clouston's offensive rush/breakout. When we break out, he has the puck carrier stop while in the zone, and wait to pass it off to someone. All this does is slow our offensive momentum, and allow for the defending team to get set. It just doesn't work. It works if the opposing team just sits back and gives us time, but they've learned not to do that.

This team is not built to fit Clouston's type of coaching. And Clouston isn't experienced enough/good enough to alter his coaching style to fit that of this team.

Under a different coach, I completely would have expected this team in a 6-9 spot.

wprager wrote:

22_4_ever wrote:

LethalLehner wrote:Leave the coaching staff as is so that we get a high pick. Get Melnyk to speak to the media indicating that we are "coasting" for the rest of the season but that a rebuild is coming this summer. Provide discounts on tickets for the remainder of the season (e.g. more metro family nights or subway nights) to ensure seats get filled (some people will come to the games just to watch hockey if it is more affordable). Start to build some hype around the draft and the rebuild that will take place to get/keep people interested. Provide discounts for people that renew season tickets. There my GM SIM thoughts are complete.

Really...

So what do you say to someone like me, who paid 8,000. for tickets to a team that everyone was saying was a playoff team and Melnyk was selling had a shot to the Stanely Cup (i suspected differently though). So anyone else buying now gets a discount and I get bubkiss? Um..no thanks. I don't like the idea of coasting to get a good pick. If that's what happens then fine, but intentionally leaving a coach in place, or not brining in players to make the team better just to get a better pick is the same as saying you're losing intentionally. You think the players will want to be here if that's the case? If they have tuned Clouston out and you don't replace him yet everyone knows that's the case they you're telling them we want you to lose and for these guys, that's unacceptable.

That's as ridiculous a suggestion as Hiring a new coach and GM how only to replace them in the offseason...

I would say check your facts. Everyone was saying they were a 10-12 team in the East. Everyone on here was, hindsight, wrong. Melnyk is a fan and cheerleader. Trust me, he's losing a heck of a lot more than your $8K. And if you are smart you'd be selling your tickets for the Habs/Leafs games at a premium and making up at least some of your original investment.

At this point in the season we are getting some exciting games (Anaheim, Islanders barn-burner). Changing the coach or the GM or bringing in a better goalie will not make a more exciting on-ice product. That can be done by bringing up more kids and resting more veterans.

Another option to your last comment could be.... bring up more kids and get rid of your veterans (or at least a good amount of them).

Getting rid of the veterans will come closer to the deadline. But, yes, that's part of my "plan" as well

22_4_ever wrote:Really...

So what do you say to someone like me, who paid 8,000. for tickets to a team that everyone was saying was a playoff team and Melnyk was selling had a shot to the Stanely Cup (i suspected differently though). So anyone else buying now gets a discount and I get bubkiss? Um..no thanks. I don't like the idea of coasting to get a good pick. If that's what happens then fine, but intentionally leaving a coach in place, or not brining in players to make the team better just to get a better pick is the same as saying you're losing intentionally. You think the players will want to be here if that's the case? If they have tuned Clouston out and you don't replace him yet everyone knows that's the case they you're telling them we want you to lose and for these guys, that's unacceptable.

That's as ridiculous a suggestion as Hiring a new coach and GM how only to replace them in the offseason...

I would say the same thing as I paid $6,000 for mine. As I said it is my opinion and you don't have to agree.

wprager wrote:

22_4_ever wrote:

LethalLehner wrote:Leave the coaching staff as is so that we get a high pick. Get Melnyk to speak to the media indicating that we are "coasting" for the rest of the season but that a rebuild is coming this summer. Provide discounts on tickets for the remainder of the season (e.g. more metro family nights or subway nights) to ensure seats get filled (some people will come to the games just to watch hockey if it is more affordable). Start to build some hype around the draft and the rebuild that will take place to get/keep people interested. Provide discounts for people that renew season tickets. There my GM SIM thoughts are complete.

Really...

So what do you say to someone like me, who paid 8,000. for tickets to a team that everyone was saying was a playoff team and Melnyk was selling had a shot to the Stanely Cup (i suspected differently though). So anyone else buying now gets a discount and I get bubkiss? Um..no thanks. I don't like the idea of coasting to get a good pick. If that's what happens then fine, but intentionally leaving a coach in place, or not brining in players to make the team better just to get a better pick is the same as saying you're losing intentionally. You think the players will want to be here if that's the case? If they have tuned Clouston out and you don't replace him yet everyone knows that's the case they you're telling them we want you to lose and for these guys, that's unacceptable.

That's as ridiculous a suggestion as Hiring a new coach and GM how only to replace them in the offseason...

I would say check your facts. Everyone was saying they were a 10-12 team in the East. Everyone on here was, hindsight, wrong. Melnyk is a fan and cheerleader. Trust me, he's losing a heck of a lot more than your $8K. And if you are smart you'd be selling your tickets for the Habs/Leafs games at a premium and making up at least some of your original investment.

At this point in the season we are getting some exciting games (Anaheim, Islanders barn-burner). Changing the coach or the GM or bringing in a better goalie will not make a more exciting on-ice product. That can be done by bringing up more kids and resting more veterans.

I don't understand season tickets as an investment. What exactly are you investing in? It strikes me that some fans seem to think that, for their patronage, they're owed a cup. That's not how it works. Sure, the team has to try to win games, but I don't buy into the notion that they're not trying to win each and every time they're on the ice. They aren't throwing the games, they just aren't winning. Clearly, as wprager said, this team isn't as good as we (including Melnyk and Murray) thought they were. You aren't owed anything more than entrance to the games when you buy your season tickets. If they take measures to sell out more games (lowering ticket prices, etc), that doesn't impact you at all. If I buy a house right at the beginning of the first phase of development and the rest of the houses don't sell, the developer will lower the price. That doesn't entitle me to anything. Same goes for your ticket prices.

spader wrote:

wprager wrote:

22_4_ever wrote:

LethalLehner wrote:Leave the coaching staff as is so that we get a high pick. Get Melnyk to speak to the media indicating that we are "coasting" for the rest of the season but that a rebuild is coming this summer. Provide discounts on tickets for the remainder of the season (e.g. more metro family nights or subway nights) to ensure seats get filled (some people will come to the games just to watch hockey if it is more affordable). Start to build some hype around the draft and the rebuild that will take place to get/keep people interested. Provide discounts for people that renew season tickets. There my GM SIM thoughts are complete.

Really...

So what do you say to someone like me, who paid 8,000. for tickets to a team that everyone was saying was a playoff team and Melnyk was selling had a shot to the Stanely Cup (i suspected differently though). So anyone else buying now gets a discount and I get bubkiss? Um..no thanks. I don't like the idea of coasting to get a good pick. If that's what happens then fine, but intentionally leaving a coach in place, or not brining in players to make the team better just to get a better pick is the same as saying you're losing intentionally. You think the players will want to be here if that's the case? If they have tuned Clouston out and you don't replace him yet everyone knows that's the case they you're telling them we want you to lose and for these guys, that's unacceptable.

That's as ridiculous a suggestion as Hiring a new coach and GM how only to replace them in the offseason...

I would say check your facts. Everyone was saying they were a 10-12 team in the East. Everyone on here was, hindsight, wrong. Melnyk is a fan and cheerleader. Trust me, he's losing a heck of a lot more than your $8K. And if you are smart you'd be selling your tickets for the Habs/Leafs games at a premium and making up at least some of your original investment.

At this point in the season we are getting some exciting games (Anaheim, Islanders barn-burner). Changing the coach or the GM or bringing in a better goalie will not make a more exciting on-ice product. That can be done by bringing up more kids and resting more veterans.

I don't understand season tickets as an investment. What exactly are you investing in? It strikes me that some fans seem to think that, for their patronage, they're owed a cup. That's not how it works. Sure, the team has to try to win games, but I don't buy into the notion that they're not trying to win each and every time they're on the ice. They aren't throwing the games, they just aren't winning. Clearly, as wprager said, this team isn't as good as we (including Melnyk and Murray) thought they were. You aren't owed anything more than entrance to the games when you buy your season tickets. If they take measures to sell out more games (lowering ticket prices, etc), that doesn't impact you at all. If I buy a house right at the beginning of the first phase of development and the rest of the houses don't sell, the developer will lower the price. That doesn't entitle me to anything. Same goes for your ticket prices.

I agree. For me, I buy season tickets because I love hockey and the Sens. If they make it to the cup and win then that is all gravy to me.

LethalLehner wrote:I agree. For me, I buy season tickets because I love hockey and the Sens. If they make it to the cup and win then that is all gravy to me.

I like gravy.

Mmmmm poutine.