GAME 4 - 2010 Stanley Cup GAME DAY: Ottawa Senators (1) @ Pittsburgh Penguins (2), Tuesday Apr. 20, 2010 - 7:00PM EST.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7KWNdXScjg

Are people seriously saying we need to get cap flexibility, and then advocating acquiring Lecavalier? Are you aware that, at 30 years old, Vinny has a cap-hit of almot $8 million a season on a contract that will last another 10 years? Vinny, who produced at a 0.85 PPG clip this season and a 0.87 PPG clip last season? That guy?

Don't even get me started on Thornton.

I think we need to get real, to a certain extent, about "getting cap space" as well. Our post-lock-out free agent signings are: a 37-year-old Alex Kovalev at 2 years $10 million, who only signed here to be close to Montreal anyway, Jarkko Ruutu who admittedly has worked out great but is not exactly a first-line centreman, Martin Gerber at 3 years $11.1 million or thereabouts, Dean McAmmond, Randy Robitaille, Joe Corvo, Luke Richardson, and a 39-year-old Dominik Hasek.

Hasek and Kovalev are the only two marquee signings (sorry Gerbage) and at their ages, both were quite risky - although it paid off in Hasek's case, however temporarily. Free agents generally only go to the teams that pay them the most ridiculously - and Murray's quite thankfully been gun-shy in the case of players like Brian Campbell - and even then, unless they have local roots they prefer cities like New York or Philadelphia. Or, they sign more reasonably with contenders - like Hossa in Detroit or Chicago - but even when we were at the top of the league, we were never dragging in free agent talent. You think primo FAs are now going to be attracted when our first line centre is Mike Fisher?

If you trade Spezza, it has to be about the return and not about having room to sign people. Players of Spezza's age and calibre almost never hit the market (only Kovalchuk counts this season IMO) and when they do, they sign mega-deals in mega-markets. We have no one in the organization capable of being a #1 centre apart from Spezza, and he's young enough to be around when the young core has developed but, obviously, already has 400+ points in the NHL and is a key part of the current team.

Defence is taken care of, goal-tending could be better but not at the expense of our offence, and wing could stand some improvement but that will probably come at the draft. Centre, if Spezza leaves, would pretty obviously be the chief area of concern. I've listed all the centres I think could adequately fill Spezza's absence; if you can't acquire them, though, I don't see how it helps this team to get rid of him. We are not going to ameliorate our centre situation by dumping Spezza and pursuing free agents.

As always, well said and well thought out Asq.

All that said, I watched the Wings pummel the 'Yotes and it's obvious Spezza isn't close to Zetterberg/Datsyuk level. I think his biggest two problems - as much as we dislike the braincramps - are his acceleration and the fact that he's an incredibly weak skater. He's pretty good in the corners in terms of absorbing contact and making a play to the blue-line (regrettably, often without looking) but as soon as his feet are really moving, if you give him any contact, it totally throws him off. I don't know if it's an issue with his technique or what.

I remember that Zetsyuk's game really took off when they got outmuscled by the Ducks in 2006-2007; they both went out and added a tonne of muscle so that they wouldn't get pushed around. Crosby is the player he is because he's the strongest player with the puck in the league IMO even when he's skating at top speed.

I said at the beginning of the season that while Spezza's newfound speed was nice, it would be detrimental if it came at the loss of any physical strength. I would much rather he be lumbering and physically tough-to-handle than have good open-ice speed, because most NHL defenceman are savvy enough with angles that anything other than Gaborik-speed is containable. I think speed factors in more if you have incredible acceleration and agility like Kane.

Come to think of it, that's probably why Spezza looks so unholy-ly dominant in regular season over-times, because the ice is too open for defencemen to consistently be able to play the body. So, IMO, if he were able to find a way to increase his upper-body strength while maintaining his speed, that kind of play could translate over into regular 5-on-5 stuff. I'm not totally holding my hopes up, though.

All this is to say that I certainly don't think he's a perfect player or anything near the uber-elite centremen in the league in terms of an all-around game. But, he also has a knack for production (Mendes pointed it out that there are only 8 players in the league with more than 300 games played and over a PPG in them, and he's a PPG in the post-season still) that most of our other players just don't have. For all of Fisher's great attributes (skating, physicality, work ethic, um...power of shot if not accuracy) he just doesn't know how to be productive for more than stretches of play. And given Cullen's career-high is 49 points, I'm guessing the 8 points in 6 playoff games isn't something we should anticipate all the time.

So, I think it's fallacious on our part to assume that Spezza has nothing to do with the success of the team and that his production is, er, the product of his circumstances. More than 7 other players in the league are playing top-line, first-unit powerplay minutes, and these others aren't producing like Spezza is. I think he also played a huge part in Regin's emergence near the end of the season; he had, for example, the primary assist on all three of Regin's goals in the post-season, and I don't think Regin's increased production should be attributed to an increase in ice-time because he was only averaging 15 minutes per game Games 1-3 and wasn't getting time on the first PP-unit. Even his mere presence is something because he will always be a guy who takes the chief defensive players of the other team and who will open up room on the ice for his linemates.

Anyway, everything I've said can be summarized as: if you can improve our centre situation for the long-term and short-term (for Eugene's sake), move Spezza. If you can't, don't.

I don't think you need to worry as much as people are about the NTC. Spezza needs some more polishing, it looked like he got it, but he obviously didn't. This was the first full year of Clouston being able to continuously work with him and it looked like there was definitely some break-throughs. Just this post-season could have been a whole lot better.

Again though, the NTC is there to ensure Spezza goes somewhere he wants to go, but it's nothing in power compared to Heatley's NMC. It's not as if the Sens couldn't and wouldn't move Spezza if they decided on it in say a years time.

The only way I see Spezza being stronger on the puck is by playing Like Lecavalier or Getzlaf (the ultimate playoff player IMO), which isn't happening. He's basically the Thornton clone of the East, but a bit more productive.

asq2 wrote: All that said, I watched the Wings pummel the 'Yotes and it's obvious Spezza isn't close to Zetterberg/Datsyuk level. I think his biggest two problems - as much as we dislike the braincramps - are his acceleration and the fact that he's an incredibly weak skater. He's pretty good in the corners in terms of absorbing contact and making a play to the blue-line (regrettably, often without looking) but as soon as his feet are really moving, if you give him any contact, it totally throws him off. I don't know if it's an issue with his technique or what.

I remember that Zetsyuk's game really took off when they got outmuscled by the Ducks in 2006-2007; they both went out and added a tonne of muscle so that they wouldn't get pushed around. Crosby is the player he is because he's the strongest player with the puck in the league IMO even when he's skating at top speed.

I said at the beginning of the season that while Spezza's newfound speed was nice, it would be detrimental if it came at the loss of any physical strength. I would much rather he be lumbering and physically tough-to-handle than have good open-ice speed, because most NHL defenceman are savvy enough with angles that anything other than Gaborik-speed is containable. I think speed factors in more if you have incredible acceleration and agility like Kane.

Come to think of it, that's probably why Spezza looks so unholy-ly dominant in regular season over-times, because the ice is too open for defencemen to consistently be able to play the body. So, IMO, if he were able to find a way to increase his upper-body strength while maintaining his speed, that kind of play could translate over into regular 5-on-5 stuff. I'm not totally holding my hopes up, though.

All this is to say that I certainly don't think he's a perfect player or anything near the uber-elite centremen in the league in terms of an all-around game. But, he also has a knack for production (Mendes pointed it out that there are only 8 players in the league with more than 300 games played and over a PPG in them, and he's a PPG in the post-season still) that most of our other players just don't have. For all of Fisher's great attributes (skating, physicality, work ethic, um...power of shot if not accuracy) he just doesn't know how to be productive for more than stretches of play. And given Cullen's career-high is 49 points, I'm guessing the 8 points in 6 playoff games isn't something we should anticipate all the time.

So, I think it's fallacious on our part to assume that Spezza has nothing to do with the success of the team and that his production is, er, the product of his circumstances. More than 7 other players in the league are playing top-line, first-unit powerplay minutes, and these others aren't producing like Spezza is. I think he also played a huge part in Regin's emergence near the end of the season; he had, for example, the primary assist on all three of Regin's goals in the post-season, and I don't think Regin's increased production should be attributed to an increase in ice-time because he was only averaging 15 minutes per game Games 1-3 and wasn't getting time on the first PP-unit. Even his mere presence is something because he will always be a guy who takes the chief defensive players of the other team and who will open up room on the ice for his linemates.

Anyway, everything I've said can be summarized as: if you can improve our centre situation for the long-term and short-term (for Eugene's sake), move Spezza. If you can't, don't.

You probably heard McLean say that the best choice for the Sens is to surround Spezza with good coaching and good teammates and a good team because you're not getting a better player back.

marakh wrote:You probably heard McLean say that the best choice for the Sens is to surround Spezza with good coaching and good teammates and a good team because you're not getting a better player back.

Well, I don't listen to Doug McLean very often, but I agree that it's pretty doubtful that we'd get a top-line centre (even a potential one) in return. They don't grow on trees; IMO we've only had two in the franchise's modern history.

Of course, it's easier said than done to get the right team around him - though Karlsson and Regin represent huge steps forward as far as the future goes - and I agree that the way he's played (in terms of being weak on the puck in the open-ice) is not good enough to be the front-and-centre guy on a Cup-winning team. I just think we'd be even further from being a Cup-winning team without him, and realistically I don't think Melnyk and co. would be willing to tank for a replacement (Couturier or RNH in 2011) after seeing 20,000+ fill SBP for three playoff games.

Let me start by stating that I am leaning towards trading Spezza. His offence would be almost impossible to replace immediately and would leave us looking a little bit like Nashville. Having said that, I have to admit that there was some progress in his game, although the progression is very slow with this player. We may just have to live with a guy who always leaves you wanting a little more in all aspects of the game. My biggest concerns with Spezza are his unwillingness/inability to understand the flaws in his game and a wonky back at such an early age. His maturity has improved, his compete level is better than it was.

I think his best comparable in my lifetime is Pierre Turgeon and that scares the living hell out of me. Great skills that just don't translate to being a dominant force in the game. Hope I am wrong.

Thats exactly who Spezza reminds me of. A guy who had every tool in the world, who was productive, and had a pretty good career... just never got it done in the playoffs and never won anythingm at least his teams.

asq2 wrote: All that said, I watched the Wings pummel the 'Yotes and it's obvious Spezza isn't close to Zetterberg/Datsyuk level. I think his biggest two problems - as much as we dislike the braincramps - are his acceleration and the fact that he's an incredibly weak skater. He's pretty good in the corners in terms of absorbing contact and making a play to the blue-line (regrettably, often without looking) but as soon as his feet are really moving, if you give him any contact, it totally throws him off. I don't know if it's an issue with his technique or what.

I remember that Zetsyuk's game really took off when they got outmuscled by the Ducks in 2006-2007; they both went out and added a tonne of muscle so that they wouldn't get pushed around. Crosby is the player he is because he's the strongest player with the puck in the league IMO even when he's skating at top speed.

I said at the beginning of the season that while Spezza's newfound speed was nice, it would be detrimental if it came at the loss of any physical strength. I would much rather he be lumbering and physically tough-to-handle than have good open-ice speed, because most NHL defenceman are savvy enough with angles that anything other than Gaborik-speed is containable. I think speed factors in more if you have incredible acceleration and agility like Kane.

Come to think of it, that's probably why Spezza looks so unholy-ly dominant in regular season over-times, because the ice is too open for defencemen to consistently be able to play the body. So, IMO, if he were able to find a way to increase his upper-body strength while maintaining his speed, that kind of play could translate over into regular 5-on-5 stuff. I'm not totally holding my hopes up, though.

All this is to say that I certainly don't think he's a perfect player or anything near the uber-elite centremen in the league in terms of an all-around game. But, he also has a knack for production (Mendes pointed it out that there are only 8 players in the league with more than 300 games played and over a PPG in them, and he's a PPG in the post-season still) that most of our other players just don't have. For all of Fisher's great attributes (skating, physicality, work ethic, um...power of shot if not accuracy) he just doesn't know how to be productive for more than stretches of play. And given Cullen's career-high is 49 points, I'm guessing the 8 points in 6 playoff games isn't something we should anticipate all the time.

So, I think it's fallacious on our part to assume that Spezza has nothing to do with the success of the team and that his production is, er, the product of his circumstances. More than 7 other players in the league are playing top-line, first-unit powerplay minutes, and these others aren't producing like Spezza is. I think he also played a huge part in Regin's emergence near the end of the season; he had, for example, the primary assist on all three of Regin's goals in the post-season, and I don't think Regin's increased production should be attributed to an increase in ice-time because he was only averaging 15 minutes per game Games 1-3 and wasn't getting time on the first PP-unit. Even his mere presence is something because he will always be a guy who takes the chief defensive players of the other team and who will open up room on the ice for his linemates.

Anyway, everything I've said can be summarized as: if you can improve our centre situation for the long-term and short-term (for Eugene's sake), move Spezza. If you can't, don't.

That's the perfect take on the situation. You should modify it and send it to the citizen as a letter to the editor Heck, you should send it to Spezza too! The note on Regin is a key distinction I don't think a lot of people have accepted... on Cullen also... one thing though is that I've seen Spezza in person and he is jacked. You can always get bigger, but he's pretty big to begin with...I'm not sure that's the issue. I think it's more of an unwillingness to battle---probably because of how ineffective he becomes when his back goes out.

asq2 wrote: All that said, I watched the Wings pummel the 'Yotes and it's obvious Spezza isn't close to Zetterberg/Datsyuk level. I think his biggest two problems - as much as we dislike the braincramps - are his acceleration and the fact that he's an incredibly weak skater. He's pretty good in the corners in terms of absorbing contact and making a play to the blue-line (regrettably, often without looking) but as soon as his feet are really moving, if you give him any contact, it totally throws him off. I don't know if it's an issue with his technique or what.

I remember that Zetsyuk's game really took off when they got outmuscled by the Ducks in 2006-2007; they both went out and added a tonne of muscle so that they wouldn't get pushed around. Crosby is the player he is because he's the strongest player with the puck in the league IMO even when he's skating at top speed.

I said at the beginning of the season that while Spezza's newfound speed was nice, it would be detrimental if it came at the loss of any physical strength. I would much rather he be lumbering and physically tough-to-handle than have good open-ice speed, because most NHL defenceman are savvy enough with angles that anything other than Gaborik-speed is containable. I think speed factors in more if you have incredible acceleration and agility like Kane.

Come to think of it, that's probably why Spezza looks so unholy-ly dominant in regular season over-times, because the ice is too open for defencemen to consistently be able to play the body. So, IMO, if he were able to find a way to increase his upper-body strength while maintaining his speed, that kind of play could translate over into regular 5-on-5 stuff. I'm not totally holding my hopes up, though.

All this is to say that I certainly don't think he's a perfect player or anything near the uber-elite centremen in the league in terms of an all-around game. But, he also has a knack for production (Mendes pointed it out that there are only 8 players in the league with more than 300 games played and over a PPG in them, and he's a PPG in the post-season still) that most of our other players just don't have. For all of Fisher's great attributes (skating, physicality, work ethic, um...power of shot if not accuracy) he just doesn't know how to be productive for more than stretches of play. And given Cullen's career-high is 49 points, I'm guessing the 8 points in 6 playoff games isn't something we should anticipate all the time.

So, I think it's fallacious on our part to assume that Spezza has nothing to do with the success of the team and that his production is, er, the product of his circumstances. More than 7 other players in the league are playing top-line, first-unit powerplay minutes, and these others aren't producing like Spezza is. I think he also played a huge part in Regin's emergence near the end of the season; he had, for example, the primary assist on all three of Regin's goals in the post-season, and I don't think Regin's increased production should be attributed to an increase in ice-time because he was only averaging 15 minutes per game Games 1-3 and wasn't getting time on the first PP-unit. Even his mere presence is something because he will always be a guy who takes the chief defensive players of the other team and who will open up room on the ice for his linemates.

Anyway, everything I've said can be summarized as: if you can improve our centre situation for the long-term and short-term (for Eugene's sake), move Spezza. If you can't, don't.

Funny enough, I was at a season ticket holder luncheon this past season and Jason was the guest of honor. I distinctly remember looking at my wife after and saying, my got he's small. Not short, but small. He was wearing a turtle neck sweater and his upper body especially chest and arms were alarming small for a pro athlete. At that time I chalked it up to his abilities make up for it, but now in retrospect I have to agree. Adding much needed size in his upper body will allow him to do things he never could before.

It will help not only offensively, but also defensively. It he were stronger than he is now, he may (and I stress may) have been able to physically overpower Sidney Crosby and take the puck away. At the very least he would be in a better position to control the other teams players in his end, and not allow them to just muscle there way out front.

If Bryan Murray and Cory Clouston want to keep Spezza in the fold, they need to sign him up for a two-a-days skating lessons - power, acceleration, stride, technique. Give him the whole kit and kaboodle.
His skating is so primitive for the NHL, he has absolutely no top shelf speed even though his stride is almost twice as long as the average skater.

If Spezza improves his skating, he could definitely be molded into whatever you want to mold him into.

His mentality has to change IMO. The reach for the puck isnt playoff hockey. Now, that reach he has is important and can be effective, but he has to start taking the man in a more effective manner to really be a true number center. Throwing a hit and effectivly taking the body are two different things.

Anyways, you can analyze Spezza all day, there are things he's good at and things he has to work on. Mental mistakes are the ones that have to stop before anything else.

Devo wrote:

asq2 wrote: All that said, I watched the Wings pummel the 'Yotes and it's obvious Spezza isn't close to Zetterberg/Datsyuk level. I think his biggest two problems - as much as we dislike the braincramps - are his acceleration and the fact that he's an incredibly weak skater. He's pretty good in the corners in terms of absorbing contact and making a play to the blue-line (regrettably, often without looking) but as soon as his feet are really moving, if you give him any contact, it totally throws him off. I don't know if it's an issue with his technique or what.

I remember that Zetsyuk's game really took off when they got outmuscled by the Ducks in 2006-2007; they both went out and added a tonne of muscle so that they wouldn't get pushed around. Crosby is the player he is because he's the strongest player with the puck in the league IMO even when he's skating at top speed.

I said at the beginning of the season that while Spezza's newfound speed was nice, it would be detrimental if it came at the loss of any physical strength. I would much rather he be lumbering and physically tough-to-handle than have good open-ice speed, because most NHL defenceman are savvy enough with angles that anything other than Gaborik-speed is containable. I think speed factors in more if you have incredible acceleration and agility like Kane.

Come to think of it, that's probably why Spezza looks so unholy-ly dominant in regular season over-times, because the ice is too open for defencemen to consistently be able to play the body. So, IMO, if he were able to find a way to increase his upper-body strength while maintaining his speed, that kind of play could translate over into regular 5-on-5 stuff. I'm not totally holding my hopes up, though.

All this is to say that I certainly don't think he's a perfect player or anything near the uber-elite centremen in the league in terms of an all-around game. But, he also has a knack for production (Mendes pointed it out that there are only 8 players in the league with more than 300 games played and over a PPG in them, and he's a PPG in the post-season still) that most of our other players just don't have. For all of Fisher's great attributes (skating, physicality, work ethic, um...power of shot if not accuracy) he just doesn't know how to be productive for more than stretches of play. And given Cullen's career-high is 49 points, I'm guessing the 8 points in 6 playoff games isn't something we should anticipate all the time.

So, I think it's fallacious on our part to assume that Spezza has nothing to do with the success of the team and that his production is, er, the product of his circumstances. More than 7 other players in the league are playing top-line, first-unit powerplay minutes, and these others aren't producing like Spezza is. I think he also played a huge part in Regin's emergence near the end of the season; he had, for example, the primary assist on all three of Regin's goals in the post-season, and I don't think Regin's increased production should be attributed to an increase in ice-time because he was only averaging 15 minutes per game Games 1-3 and wasn't getting time on the first PP-unit. Even his mere presence is something because he will always be a guy who takes the chief defensive players of the other team and who will open up room on the ice for his linemates.

Anyway, everything I've said can be summarized as: if you can improve our centre situation for the long-term and short-term (for Eugene's sake), move Spezza. If you can't, don't.

Funny enough, I was at a season ticket holder luncheon this past season and Jason was the guest of honor. I distinctly remember looking at my wife after and saying, my got he's small. Not short, but small. He was wearing a turtle neck sweater and his upper body especially chest and arms were alarming small for a pro athlete. At that time I chalked it up to his abilities make up for it, but now in retrospect I have to agree. Adding much needed size in his upper body will allow him to do things he never could before.

It will help not only offensively, but also defensively. It he were stronger than he is now, he may (and I stress may) have been able to physically overpower Sidney Crosby and take the puck away. At the very least he would be in a better position to control the other teams players in his end, and not allow them to just muscle there way out front.

Actually, according to Gery Roberts, Crosby works very little on his upper-body. His strength comes from his tree-trunk-sized legs. Not having a hugely developed set of chest/arms/back also lowers his center of gravity, making him that much more difficult to topple over.

Spezza needs to keep in shape, for sure, but if he's going to bulk up I would start with his legs and torso.

OK, maybe it's lower-body strength he needs to work on. All I'm saying is, right now it feels like Karlsson could push Spezza around when both are skating, and there has to be some way of changing that....right?

It has nothing to do with strength.

N4L wrote:It has nothing to do with strength.

Well, it's got to be something more than just an unwillingness to battle, because he's much more able to take contact in the corners than in open-ice. Could it be his skating technique? Maybe he should try skating like Getzlaf instead of having his body in a right-angle.