Schubert on Re-Entry

SpezDispenser wrote:

wprager wrote:It's got to be another move, like Rooney said. $1.7M is on the low end of things for injuries and deadline pickups, which makes $1.25M nearly unacceptable.

Uh....1.25 is okay really. If an injury hits badly enough that we need to call Z.Smith up for the year or for a few months, then we'll be able to absorb it without much problems. The issue would come at the deadline I guess, but really, who really thinks we're adding someone at the deadline?

$1.25 mil is too tight, SD, to say nothing of $850K. I don't have the numbers on hand, but I'd say most teams lose at more than 100 games to injury (total) every year. At minimum. I've heard of teams losing more than 200 games to injury, too.

To put that figure in perspective: that would mean that if every player on our roster still played 75 (out of 82) games, we would still be in serious danger of running out of cap space (7 x 20 = 140 games). Add that up. That's about almost two full seasons for two players (70 games a piece). Even at league minimum, you'd be pushing it.

It's just bad managing to plan on everyone staying healthy. You need to be flexible and forward-looking. Look what happened to Calgary last year. You don't want to end up in that position.

This is fishy... but hopefully Murray does have a taker... and I assume some other plan to recoup the cap hit we're going to take.

I assume we get relief if the team that picks up Schubert puts him on LTIR during the season, or waives him themselves... or do we?

shabbs wrote:This is fishy... but hopefully Murray does have a taker... and I assume some other plan to recoup the cap hit we're going to take.

I assume we get relief if the team that picks up Schubert puts him on LTIR during the season, or waives him themselves... or do we?

I am on board with the people that say there is a trade that is already agreed to on in principle, say for Schubs and Zubov for no cap hit back, or perhaps someone is going to claim him off waivers at half the hit, then Murray is forced to make another move for cap relief.

rooneypoo wrote:

$1.25 mil is too tight, SD, to say nothing of $850K. I don't have the numbers on hand, but I'd say most teams lose at more than 100 games to injury (total) every year. At minimum. I've heard of teams losing more than 200 games to injury, too.

To put that figure in perspective: that would mean that if every player on our roster still played 75 (out of 82) games, we would still be in serious danger of running out of cap space (7 x 20 = 140 games). Add that up. That's about almost two full seasons for two players (70 games a piece). Even at league minimum, you'd be pushing it.

It's just bad managing to plan on everyone staying healthy. You need to be flexible and forward-looking. Look what happened to Calgary last year. You don't want to end up in that position.

If we had 1.25, wouldn't there be some relief coming from the injured players? I'm confused that that wouldn't be part of the equation.

SpezDispenser wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

$1.25 mil is too tight, SD, to say nothing of $850K. I don't have the numbers on hand, but I'd say most teams lose at more than 100 games to injury (total) every year. At minimum. I've heard of teams losing more than 200 games to injury, too.

To put that figure in perspective: that would mean that if every player on our roster still played 75 (out of 82) games, we would still be in serious danger of running out of cap space (7 x 20 = 140 games). Add that up. That's about almost two full seasons for two players (70 games a piece). Even at league minimum, you'd be pushing it.

It's just bad managing to plan on everyone staying healthy. You need to be flexible and forward-looking. Look what happened to Calgary last year. You don't want to end up in that position.

If we had 1.25, wouldn't there be some relief coming from the injured players? I'm confused that that wouldn't be part of the equation.

Cap relief only works when players that are on LTIR are replaced with players who's salary takes the team over the cap. Normally, your call-ups for replacing LTIR players have an equal to or less than cap hit than the injured player. But sometimes that is not possible. In those cases, the NHL will give the team cap relief for the time of the call up but when the LTIR player returns, the team has to immediately get back under the cap.

All active roster players, injured reserve and LTIR players are counted towards the cap.

Yeah but if you are carrying more than 20 and under the cap then the man game to injury is often not an issue as you slide in player 21 and 22 and 23 in some cases

SpezDispenser wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

$1.25 mil is too tight, SD, to say nothing of $850K. I don't have the numbers on hand, but I'd say most teams lose at more than 100 games to injury (total) every year. At minimum. I've heard of teams losing more than 200 games to injury, too.

To put that figure in perspective: that would mean that if every player on our roster still played 75 (out of 82) games, we would still be in serious danger of running out of cap space (7 x 20 = 140 games). Add that up. That's about almost two full seasons for two players (70 games a piece). Even at league minimum, you'd be pushing it.

It's just bad managing to plan on everyone staying healthy. You need to be flexible and forward-looking. Look what happened to Calgary last year. You don't want to end up in that position.

If we had 1.25, wouldn't there be some relief coming from the injured players? I'm confused that that wouldn't be part of the equation.

The only cap relief you get for injured players is if they qualify for LTIR. If your injured player ends up on regular IR, you're paying his salary PLUS the salary of the player to replace him.

Okay, interesting. Thanks Shabbs and Rooney.

MurderOnIce wrote:Yeah but if you are carrying more than 20 and under the cap then the man game to injury is often not an issue as you slide in player 21 and 22 and 23 in some cases

That's true -- although my guess is you'll see us with a 21- or 22-man roster before long.

I could see as many as two guys going now for sure once Winchester returns, especially if Schubert gets claimed -- if Carkner looks like he's going to work out, then Picard (because I believe we're going to make room for Lee soon); and, if Regin sticks, then one of Kelly / Donovan.

If both Carkner and Regin lose their spot, then no one will be moved; if only one loses their spot, then one of those other three (Picard, Kelly, Donovan) will go, depending on position; and if both stick, then two of those three will be gone.

That's pretty much it, if you ask me. I just really hope we don't give Picard away for nothing.

We've come all this way with Picard - I thought he was wildly inconsistent last year and we're here now with a real coach...it would hurt to give him up at this point.

BUT...it's gonna be a challenge to have to see if he can hack it in real games that mean a lot.

SpezDispenser wrote:We've come all this way with Picard - I thought he was wildly inconsistent last year and we're here now with a real coach...it would hurt to give him up at this point.

BUT...it's gonna be a challenge to have to see if he can hack it in real games that mean a lot.

Me too. And I like Picard more than Lee, for the record.

But the roster / cap crunch is on at D in OTT, big time, from here on out. I could see as many as two of Picard, Campoli, Lee, and maybe even Kuba gone by July 1, 2010 -- especially if we manage to re-sign Volchenkov. Kuba stays if Volchie leaves, I'd say; if Volchie stays, he might have to go. You need a few steady, reliable vets, after all.

You have to think Cowen is on this team next year, tho'. Hell, he was still getting his legs back and shaking off the rust this camp, and he already looked ready. That leaves you with

Phillips / Volchenkov OR Kuba
Karlsson / Cowen
3 of Campoli, Lee, Picard, Carkner

rooneypoo wrote:Me too. And I like Picard more than Lee, for the record.

But the roster / cap crunch is on at D in OTT, big time, from here on out. I could see as many as two of Picard, Campoli, Lee, and maybe even Kuba gone by July 1, 2010 -- especially if we manage to re-sign Volchenkov. Kuba stays if Volchie leaves, I'd say; if Volchie stays, he might have to go. You need a few steady, reliable vets, after all.

You have to think Cowen is on this team next year, tho'. Hell, he was still getting his legs back and shaking off the rust this camp, and he already looked ready. That leaves you with

Phillips / Volchenkov OR Kuba
Karlsson / Cowen
3 of Campoli, Lee, Picard, Carkner

I know, I feel very badly for Kuba, because he's been a heck of a sport up to the deadline etc. But, he's the guy we probably will have to move - and the thought within the org. will probably be that Phillips will re-sign a long, cheap contract (I hope). I know how people feel that Volchenkov will net us a nice prospect or forward, but I feel we need him going forward.

SpezDispenser wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:Me too. And I like Picard more than Lee, for the record.

But the roster / cap crunch is on at D in OTT, big time, from here on out. I could see as many as two of Picard, Campoli, Lee, and maybe even Kuba gone by July 1, 2010 -- especially if we manage to re-sign Volchenkov. Kuba stays if Volchie leaves, I'd say; if Volchie stays, he might have to go. You need a few steady, reliable vets, after all.

You have to think Cowen is on this team next year, tho'. Hell, he was still getting his legs back and shaking off the rust this camp, and he already looked ready. That leaves you with

Phillips / Volchenkov OR Kuba
Karlsson / Cowen
3 of Campoli, Lee, Picard, Carkner

I know, I feel very badly for Kuba, because he's been a heck of a sport up to the deadline etc. But, he's the guy we probably will have to move - and the thought within the org. will probably be that Phillips will re-sign a long, cheap contract (I hope). I know how people feel that Volchenkov will net us a nice prospect or forward, but I feel we need him going forward.

Ball's in Vochenkov's court, tho', to be fair. If he doesn't want to sign here, he doesn't sign here. We can wish and hope and demand that he stays here all we like -- but the decision rests with him. If he wants to stay, I have no doubt that he and BM will come to terms.

rooneypoo wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:Me too. And I like Picard more than Lee, for the record.

But the roster / cap crunch is on at D in OTT, big time, from here on out. I could see as many as two of Picard, Campoli, Lee, and maybe even Kuba gone by July 1, 2010 -- especially if we manage to re-sign Volchenkov. Kuba stays if Volchie leaves, I'd say; if Volchie stays, he might have to go. You need a few steady, reliable vets, after all.

You have to think Cowen is on this team next year, tho'. Hell, he was still getting his legs back and shaking off the rust this camp, and he already looked ready. That leaves you with

Phillips / Volchenkov OR Kuba
Karlsson / Cowen
3 of Campoli, Lee, Picard, Carkner

I know, I feel very badly for Kuba, because he's been a heck of a sport up to the deadline etc. But, he's the guy we probably will have to move - and the thought within the org. will probably be that Phillips will re-sign a long, cheap contract (I hope). I know how people feel that Volchenkov will net us a nice prospect or forward, but I feel we need him going forward.

Ball's in Vochenkov's court, tho', to be fair. If he doesn't want to sign here, he doesn't sign here. We can wish and hope and demand that he stays here all we like -- but the decision rests with him. If he wants to stay, I have no doubt that he and BM will come to terms.

hopefully cap friendly terms over like 4 or 5 years, but no NTC/NMC's are passed out anymore (not that I think Volchie would ever pose a problem for us)

rooneypoo wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:We've come all this way with Picard - I thought he was wildly inconsistent last year and we're here now with a real coach...it would hurt to give him up at this point.

BUT...it's gonna be a challenge to have to see if he can hack it in real games that mean a lot.

Me too. And I like Picard more than Lee, for the record.

But the roster / cap crunch is on at D in OTT, big time, from here on out. I could see as many as two of Picard, Campoli, Lee, and maybe even Kuba gone by July 1, 2010 -- especially if we manage to re-sign Volchenkov. Kuba stays if Volchie leaves, I'd say; if Volchie stays, he might have to go. You need a few steady, reliable vets, after all.

You have to think Cowen is on this team next year, tho'. Hell, he was still getting his legs back and shaking off the rust this camp, and he already looked ready. That leaves you with

Phillips / Volchenkov OR Kuba
Karlsson / Cowen
3 of Campoli, Lee, Picard, Carkner

I think it will look more like this

A Trian/Phillips
Karlsson/Kuba
Lee/Cowen
Carkner

Thats just me but tons can happen over the next year obviously.

Also, it depends on the kind of year Carkner has and how he developes. If he can turn into a 6th D who PK's, then we'll see what happens with Lee.

N4L wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:We've come all this way with Picard - I thought he was wildly inconsistent last year and we're here now with a real coach...it would hurt to give him up at this point.

BUT...it's gonna be a challenge to have to see if he can hack it in real games that mean a lot.

Me too. And I like Picard more than Lee, for the record.

But the roster / cap crunch is on at D in OTT, big time, from here on out. I could see as many as two of Picard, Campoli, Lee, and maybe even Kuba gone by July 1, 2010 -- especially if we manage to re-sign Volchenkov. Kuba stays if Volchie leaves, I'd say; if Volchie stays, he might have to go. You need a few steady, reliable vets, after all.

You have to think Cowen is on this team next year, tho'. Hell, he was still getting his legs back and shaking off the rust this camp, and he already looked ready. That leaves you with

Phillips / Volchenkov OR Kuba
Karlsson / Cowen
3 of Campoli, Lee, Picard, Carkner

I think it will look more like this

A Trian/Phillips
Karlsson/Kuba
Lee/Cowen
Carkner

Thats just me but tons can happen over the next year obviously.

6 of one, half dozen of the other...

We're both in agreement that two of our current defenders will be gone, and we're reasonably close in terms of who stays and who goes. I personally think we're going to feel the cap pinch and will be forced to part ways with one or Kuba or Volchenkov -- we have a lot of RFAs to deal with in short order -- and will have to move one of Lee/Picard/Campoli to make room for Cowen. That's just me, tho'. I'd love it if you turned out to be right -- we'd have a better D, overall -- but I'm not sure we'll be able to afford it when the time comes.

I wasn't calling / thinking of pairings, btw, just listing them off.

having too many d is a good thing especially when a couple of them are RFA's. At least we retain their rights and could get something in return if a RFA contract is offered. Lee and Campoli are going to be working for their next contract so I expect them to go out and play well.