Just when things were looking bleak to the east

Cronie wrote:boys oh boys, if the Cats fail to make the post-season, I guess they'll NEVER know how J-Bow performs... a shame really.

Cronie, my friend, IMHO the Cats know exactly how Jay performs...

Watching the Panthers' last two games will tell you how much he's really worth. Nothing like a desperate situation to reveal the true character of players.

What a finish to this season...I love it!
:D:

Cronie wrote:That certainly has to hurt. Perhaps the Habs will rise above it and still put up a decent fight; but let's face it, that's got to be a painful blow to their confidence; not to mention last night's loss doesn't help either I'm sure.

Oh, speaking of which, let that be a lesson to all the arrogant and beligerent Hab fans out there: don't start chanting OLE OLE OLE when there's 10 mins left in the 3rd...because it COULD be premature... Just sayin'...

I'll settle for them learning not to chant OLE OLE when there's 10 minutes gone in the 1st....
or when they're down by a goal....

davetherave wrote:

Cronie wrote:boys oh boys, if the Cats fail to make the post-season, I guess they'll NEVER know how J-Bow performs... a shame really.

Cronie, my friend, IMHO the Cats know exactly how Jay performs...

Watching the Panthers' last two games will tell you how much he's really worth. Nothing like a desperate situation to reveal the true character of players.

What a finish to this season...I love it!
:D:

Once again, excellent point.

Am I the only one that thinks there's a possibility that J Bow is overrated? I'm not saying he is, just that I've got a sneaky suspicion he could take a while to impress, rather than being a total bust that is.

I dont know about overrated, i just watch him play and he sure skates like a figure skater.

Cronie wrote:Am I the only one that thinks there's a possibility that J Bow is overrated? I'm not saying he is, just that I've got a sneaky suspicion he could take a while to impress, rather than being a total bust that is.

No.

And he's going to be overcompensated for his services shortly as well.

asq2 wrote:

Cronie wrote:Am I the only one that thinks there's a possibility that J Bow is overrated? I'm not saying he is, just that I've got a sneaky suspicion he could take a while to impress, rather than being a total bust that is.

No.

And he's going to be overcompensated for his services shortly as well.

IMHO the issue with a player like Bouwmeester has less to do with the money than whether or not he is a 'fit' for the team that signs him.

Are these guys 'overcompensated'? You can argue that all day long.

But if the net result is that if the team improves significantly as a result (directly or indirectly) of signing a particular UFA--and that the signing works relative to the team's financial picture--the compensation is no longer an issue.

It's all about achieving 'optimal balance of assets'.

PS this is definitely material for a dedicated thread...

I think thats exactly right, Dave.

What Bouwmeester signs for isn't nearly as important as where he signs. If he signs with the wrong team and is expected to be the guy right away on a team that maybe isn't a real contender, then he may never reach his potential. If however he signs with a team like Detroit, then he'll be free to be the guy in waiting and won't be stuck with the load squarely on his shoulders...

That being said, I have to wonder where he was 2 and 3 weeks ago when his team really needed him. You can say what you want about the last couple games as being crunch time, but that was the real crunch time and he didn't step up...

davetherave wrote:[IMHO the issue with a player like Bouwmeester has less to do with the money than whether or not he is a 'fit' for the team that signs him.

You always have to look at the money IMO. Part of being a "fit" for a team is having a salary that allows a competitive team to be built.

Mike Fisher has the heart, intensity, physicality and defence to "fit" on any team. At $4.2 million, though, he probably doesn't.

Jay Bouwmeester fits on any team. At $8 million, though, you're not going to be able to surround him with players to complement him, support him and generally make the team competitive.

cash wrote:That being said, I have to wonder where he was 2 and 3 weeks ago when his team really needed him. You can say what you want about the last couple games as being crunch time, but that was the real crunch time and he didn't step up...

Agreed...I think you hit it on the head about him though...he doesn't, and has never seemed to be, comfortable being tagged 'a franchise player'.

When he first came to Florida, I remember--as I was living there at the time--all the hoopla around him. But he never asserted himself enough to justify the hype, which was disturbingly similar to all the noise made in Tampa over Stamkos.

The impression Bouwmeester gives is that he wants to play for a team that doesn't rely solely, or even principally, on him to win.

asq2 wrote:

davetherave wrote:[IMHO the issue with a player like Bouwmeester has less to do with the money than whether or not he is a 'fit' for the team that signs him.

You always have to look at the money IMO. Part of being a "fit" for a team is having a salary that allows a competitive team to be built.

Mike Fisher has the heart, intensity, physicality and defence to "fit" on any team. At $4.2 million, though, he probably doesn't.

Jay Bouwmeester fits on any team. At $8 million, though, you're not going to be able to surround him with players to complement him, support him and generally make the team competitive.

If you want to use Fisher as an example, the issue with Fisher is that his skill set is way too limited for the money he's been paid. The decision to pay him that money was purely arbitrary on Bryan Murray's part. And Fisher, for all his qualities, is not an elite player.

When you talk about top-tier skill players like Bouwmeester, they command what the market allows. In these cases, the wisdom of signing a player of that calibre at market value is predicated on that player being a fit for the team (whether 'fit' means as a building block, or as a complement to the existing roster), and not just an expensive 'add-on'.

Agreed?

davetherave wrote:

cash wrote:That being said, I have to wonder where he was 2 and 3 weeks ago when his team really needed him. You can say what you want about the last couple games as being crunch time, but that was the real crunch time and he didn't step up...

Agreed...I think you hit it on the head about him though...he doesn't, and has never seemed to be, comfortable being tagged 'a franchise player'.

When he first came to Florida, I remember--as I was living there at the time--all the hoopla around him. But he never asserted himself enough to justify the hype, which was disturbingly similar to all the noise made in Tampa over Stamkos.

The impression Bouwmeester gives is that he wants to play for a team that doesn't rely solely, or even principally, on him to win.

or maybe a team that actually has some fans?

Actually Marakh, it may just be that Bouwmeester doesn't like living in South Florida and doesn't relate to the South Florida lifestyle.

I worked/lived there for several years on two separate occasions; and I can relate to the idea that a 'good Canadian boy' like Jay might just feel out of place in a sprawling metropolis that puts more value on the colour of your Ferrari and the name of your plastic surgeon than your accomplishments as a hockey player.

That would logically be why Jay reportedly says he 'wants to play in a hockey market'.

And no, I don't think the NHL should have ever put a team in South Florida.

Tampa is a different story, but then again, it's not South Florida.

davetherave wrote:If you want to use Fisher as an example, the issue with Fisher is that his skill set is way too limited for the money he's been paid. The decision to pay him that money was purely arbitrary on Bryan Murray's part. And Fisher, for all his qualities, is not an elite player.

When you talk about top-tier skill players like Bouwmeester, they command what the market allows. In these cases, the wisdom of signing a player of that calibre at market value is predicated on that player being a fit for the team (whether 'fit' means as a building block, or as a complement to the existing roster), and not just an expensive 'add-on'.

Agreed?

Sure, but Bouwmeester is not top-tier. He's only expected to become top-tier.

Someone getting paid $7-8 million better dominate at at least one end of the ice. Bouwmeester is pretty good at both, but has yet to achieve domination offensively or defensively (his positioning has a ways to go IMO).

Bouwmeester's this almost fabled creature right now. Somehow he got worked into the next Bobby Orr. He's fast, he's huge, he's mobile, he can pass and he has an okay shot. He can beat guys positionally, but because he's only 25, he hasn't learned the ins and outs of the league yet.

His point totals are average at best - his best season was 46 - and that's with like...27 minutes of ice time a night. Granted, Florida sucked for a long time offensively, but that shouldn't really count.

I have a feeling that teams just don't want to let him go somewhere else, just in case he makes it all the way to elite. We all want this guy on our team for the next 10 years so he can continue to develop. Pretty scary thought for that kind of coin.

I'm not 100% positive what the GM who spends the 7 million+ is going to get. He's definitely one of the top 15, but for that kind of $$, shouldn't he be in the Norris running with Chara and Green and Weber and Lidstom? He's nowhere near those guys, really he isn't even close.

That would be my fear.

PS - I don't want him going to another team. I still want him pretty badly.

See? What can I say? And I'm pretty level headed about these things for the most part.

^His upside is Niedermayer-esque. But can you afford to pay that kinda coin for potential?

504Heater wrote:See? What can I say? And I'm pretty level headed about these things for the most part.

As opposed to when the Sens lose to the Thrashers.