The New Centaurs: Murray's Makeover

asq2 wrote:If we're out of the top-4 and miss Hedman, Cowen, JT and MSP, want Jordan Schroeder.

I know we need a centre but I've been watching the TSN games on demand of the WJHC and Schroeder is unbelievable.

He might be surpassing MSP in my books.

Now that Fisher has had a taste of the wing...anything's possible.

I voted for a PMD although I'm not entirely convinced of the UFA route being our best avenue. If we can get one, great, but they are sooooo expensive. Depending on what we do with our middle contracts, it might be more realistic to get PMDs via trade or by good prospecting/drafting/developing. And yes, that is far easier said than done.

If we do go the UFA route, maybe a quasi-puck mover or two on reasonable contracts (sort of like Kuba) can come in for a year or two while our young defensive talent continues to develop. Having one bona-fide super $$$ PMD is sexy, but having that mobility spread out among slightly less skilled defensemen might be a decent alternative.

As asq and rooney pointed out a while back, the mobility issue probably has a significant tie in to the secondary scoring, so I would definitely re-evaluate our forward's ability to put the puck in the net after tinkering with the back end.

I'm proud to call myself one of the most outspoken members of Tank Nation. :D

I am completely fine with the team sucking until the end of the season and picking up a high pick. The "tanking" I don't want to see is a lack of effort or a total lack of confidence along the way.

My ideal situation is if the Sens get some "character" wins along the way to a top 5 pick, and keep the majority of the losses to one goal, playoff type games. But even with this route I'd like to see some new PMDs come in.

beerandsens wrote:I voted for a PMD although I'm not entirely convinced of the UFA route being our best avenue. If we can get one, great, but they are sooooo expensive. Depending on what we do with our middle contracts, it might be more realistic to get PMDs via trade or by good prospecting/drafting/developing. And yes, that is far easier said than done.

Thanks for your vote and for your comments.

I am looking into several articles and reports that address the potential impact of the economic downturn on the NHL, and may start a new topic on the subject.

Both Eugene Melnyk and Bryan Murray have indicated that fiscal prudence is a priority going forward, so we may see less expensive UFAs and a reliance on young players in this rebuilding/retooling process.

If you watched the Young Stars last night, and note how many 18- and 19-year olds are already playing in the NHL, this route is clearly not a bad one.

It does require some patience, but the quality of the hockey is definitely entertaining, as Chicago, Phoenix, and Los Angeles to name a few are demonstrating.

[/quote]I've noticed that very few posters seem to think Ottawa needs a legitimate #1 goalie.

Does this mean after just a few games, that Elliott has, in their eyes, locked down the starting job? [/quote]

I'm not ready to call Elliott a #1 goalie just yet, but even when Auld was red hot we were a .500 team at best. I believe there are far more pressing problems. I'd still make the move if the right goalie was available, but I don't like the idea of tying up too much salary until we attempt to address our defensive mobility, secondary scoring or both.

Take Jarome Iginla. No matter who comes and goes on the Flames, no matter whether he's scoring or not, no matter whether they are winning or not, Jarome Iginla is a leader. He ignites his team game in, game out. Iginla is a player who captivates you because his level of intensity is constant.

Great players do that.

Does Spezza have the potential, or desire, in your opinion, to be that kind of player?
:study:

No. I never thought so. I'm not sure if he needs to be though, if we have someone else on the team who can be that guy. I'm listening to arguements though...

beerandsens wrote:

Take Jarome Iginla. No matter who comes and goes on the Flames, no matter whether he's scoring or not, no matter whether they are winning or not, Jarome Iginla is a leader. He ignites his team game in, game out. Iginla is a player who captivates you because his level of intensity is constant.

Great players do that.

Does Spezza have the potential, or desire, in your opinion, to be that kind of player?
:study:

No. I never thought so. I'm not sure if he needs to be though, if we have someone else on the team who can be that guy. I'm listening to arguements though...

Who do you think is/can be that player...especially if one considers Alfredsson's abilities/performance are being diminished by his injuries?

Excellent article about Craig Hartsburg from today's Ottawa Citizen here:

http://www.faceoff.com/story.html?id=950a2e49-77f6-4f34-b6e1-ccbfcbc055e3&add_feed_url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.faceoff.com%2ftopstories.atom

"It's difficult to understand," Hartsburg says, choosing his words carefully. "When you build a team, your aim is to put together a group that takes pride in being part of a team. That just hasn't been happening here enough. If we're to get serious about getting better, it has to happen every game."

Hartsburg was an excellent defenseman and has seen the good, the bad and the ugly as a coach.

People also tend to forget he was the coach for Canada's 2008 WJC team during their last Gold Medal before Pat Quinn.

IMHO a good man who deserves a good group of players to work with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craig_Hartsburg

Well the only guy that I've heard of beyond Alfredsson would be Jason Smith. But I'm not sure if he's actively playing that role unless he's wearing the C.

I'm personally more comfortable speculating potential skill and athletic qualities and far less comfortable attempting to evaluate "leadership potential". For that reason I find it really hard to imagine any current rostor player fulfilling the roll you outlined. I can only see a new player offering it.

asq2 wrote:

Acrobat wrote:So from the sounds of it, our defense is inadequate, yet it will remain essentially unchanged, other than Kuba leaving, and Lee moving in full-time?

Not sure I see the path to that conclusion...
I'd suspect that Smith ends up moving over the summer, Kuba at trade deadline, and Schubert gets traded/waived over summer if they can't pawn him off sooner (he's been scratched too many times to keep paying him).

So how do you propose changing it? Packaging Erik Karlsson and our first for a defenceman? Giving Bouwmeester $8 million a season? Or trading Spezza or Heatley?

If we do the first two, our future really suffers. If we choose the last option, we're not going to get any better anyway.

Re-building is not a one-year thing.

I wasn't arguing with previous posters, just summarizing the potential outcome, and suggesting Murrays probable response (or at least what I figure it will be, based on what I have seen and heard up until now).

I would definitely not give up Karlsson nor would I give up our first. I'd have a hard time giving up the SJ first until after the playoffs; I'd like to know where they end up and what it's worth.

I'll admit that I had thrown out the idea of trading Spezza, although it was somewhat driven by cap concerns; I'm less enamoured by the idea now.

Heatley is one I'm not sure about yet, as he continues to float somewhat, despite the puck going in the net - is it possible to get two solid first liners that would score 30-35goals per season or more for $4M each? (have to assume that the second player that is replaced is worth at least $1M also). In the end, I'd lean towards keeping him though.

J-Bo would be great in an ideal world, but I doubt that even $8M would bring him here. I understand he isn't big on the spotlight, so Ottawa isn't the place for him. I'd be willing to do $6.5-7.0M, though, if he really was willing willing to come, and the numbers would otherwise work.

I agree that rebuilding is going to take a few years; I have said as much elsewhere, and have suggested that Ottawa will do well to end up in a low playoff spot next year. This year, the plan needs to be to continue the positive changes that have started to take place. Along those lines are the moves that I suggested are likely to come, as they both address need, and open up space (player and cap).

Looking at our poll, the prevailing opinion so far seems to be to get a UFA PMD and ship out the middle of the roster (I'll assume this means Fisher, Vermette, Ruutu, Neil, Schubert, McAmmond et al).

I am surprised that more posters don't see a 'youth movement' as the way to go. The NHL probably has more 18-22 year olds than ever; a young roster, sprinkled with a few hard nosed 'win at all costs' veterans, follows the old Conn Smythe dictum.

Question for the group: how much young talent can you get if you trade one of the 'Big Three'?

Remember what Quebec got for Eric Lindros? From Lindros' listing on Wikipedia:

"Many consider this trade a key reason that the Colorado Avalanche, which the Nordiques became in 1995, went on to be an NHL powerhouse. They received in the trade eventual Hart Trophy winner Peter Forsberg, as well as Ron Hextall, Chris Simon, Mike Ricci, Kerry Huffman, Steve Duchesne, a 1st round selection (Jocelyn Thibault) in 1993, a 1st round selection (later traded to the Toronto Maple Leafs, later traded to the Washington Capitals - Nolan Baumgartner) in 1994, and $15,000,000 cash. Since the trade, the Avalanche have won eight division titles and two Stanley Cup championships, due in part to the play of Forsberg, and the later addition of Patrick Roy, whom the Avalanche received in a later package deal that included Thibault."

Thoughts and suggestions?

To trade one of the big three, I'd suspect the return would be big, but not nearly in the range of those types of trades we've seen before. With the potential salary issues that Heatley or Spezza could bring to a new team (Alfie is going nowhere), the value naturally will go down.

Still, I'd expect something along the lines of a T6F/first pairing elite D plus a mid-range 1st plus some change (spare parts). Or Luongo/equivalent.

I am surprised that there isn't further interest in a youth movement, as the Sens are the 7th oldest team in the NHL, despite six rookies.

http://www.nhlnumbers.com/compare.php?season=0809&type=averageage&order=ASC

I still hope they dump Fisher.

Acrobat wrote:To trade one of the big three, I'd suspect the return would be big, but not nearly in the range of those types of trades we've seen before. With the potential salary issues that Heatley or Spezza could bring to a new team (Alfie is going nowhere), the value naturally will go down.

Still, I'd expect something along the lines of a T6F/first pairing elite D plus a mid-range 1st plus some change (spare parts). Or Luongo/equivalent.

So, if you compare what was/is rumoured to being offered for Vincent Lecavalier (Higgins, Plekanec, Gorges, PK Subban and a high pick, if memory serves me), do you think Spezza or Heatley have similar or equal value?

Would you do that kind of a deal?

PS after seeing the ASG tonight, do you think Heatley needs Spezza, or could he play with a lower priced center of similar skill level?

I think right now Heatley's and Spezza's values are very low but, disregarding that I think Lecavalier still gets the edge.

As far as the ASG; I don't think it's the place to judge whether or not Heatley needs Spezza.

Cap'n Clutch wrote:

As far as the ASG; I don't think it's the place to judge whether or not Heatley needs Spezza.

Not a judgement, but it raises the question...

I think the more pertinent question is "why does Dany Heatley play the exact same in the All-Star game as he does in regular season games?? The number one thing Hartsburg should be doing right now is splicing tape from the ASG and from the game against NYR and showing it to Heatley so he can see that he has been utterly useless all season long - his last 3 games notwithstanding...

asq2 wrote:
Spezza has lacked a centre remotely as good as he is offensively, he has lacked a second line capable of scoring consistently since 2005-2006, and a veteran coach, and elite puck-moving defencemen since that time as well.

Am I the only one who truly believes Regin is that guy?

cash wrote:Am I the only one who truly believes Regin is that guy?

Man...I hope you're right. Spezza needs a bit of insulation. It's getting ridiculous that he's the only center capable of putting up a point, let alone a goal.