The New Centaurs: Murray's Makeover

wprager wrote:

This argument (that we have too much in our top three or top four forwards) has been made many times before and Rooney and I have both shown counter-examples that at least question it, if not completely blow it out of the water.

Look, Fisher is making top-four money but producing like a bottom-3. Similarly, Vermette is making top-six money and producing (last 5 games aside) like a bottom three.

If you take their nearly 7 million combined and replace it with two guys making ~1 each and producing the same numbers, then we are not even having this discussion. And if they were producing what you expect 4.2 and 2.7 players to produce, the Sens are in a playoff spot and, again, we aren't having this discussion.

Other than that, good post.

First off, I want to thank everybody who has responded to this post. Great discussion.

Some pretty good points made here, especially about Philly, and yes, our esteemed colleague is correct.

However, as he also says, the Flyers are winning and Ottawa is not.

So does that mean it's OK to load up on the front end? IMHO, it's a dangerous strategy.

Philadelphia does have potential issues with Briere's cap impact, and has two question marks in Martin Biron and Antero Niittymäki.

Boston appears to have acheived the best balance so far in the East. Significantly, they are run by an ex-Senators executive in Peter Chiarelli.

The central question for Senators, and the one that seems to elicit the most controversy, is whether or not one of the 'Big Three' (which are becoming the 'Big Two' as Alfredsson slows down) should be traded for a package of younger, less expensive talent.

More importantly, are Jason Spezza and Dany Heatley, fundamentally, the players who will assume the leadership of the club, commensurate with their salaries?

In this respect, the contrast between the impact of Mike Richards/Jeff Carter on their team as opposed to Spezza/Heatley can be debated.

There are arguments to be made both ways, and I look forward to everyone's continuing perspectives.

:D

504Heater wrote:I voted for UFA puck mover. We so desperately need a number one D-man to start getting back into contention. I'm convinced that we can trade Kelly and Smith, Kuba by the deadline, and possibly Vermette and Neil and have enough $$ to make an impact signing in the off-season for a D-man.

Problem is, there aren't many coming up for UFA that fit our need. There's Bouwmeester, but getting him is gonna be a ton of money for this team to take on.

Good news is: by the time Karlsson, Foligno, A-Train etc. are all up for renewal Phillips will be coming off the books and Fisher's NMC will become a limited NTC.

I want to see this team get a killer number one D-man. UFA or trade, we need one so badly (actually we need 2).

No Heater. I can't agree with you here. Chris Kelly for 2mil long term is a ridiculous deal for what he does for this team. There's no value in trading him- we might get like a 2nd rd pick for him, what's that worth? He's one of our few GOOD depth guys. It's my opinion that what we will get in return for Kelly is not worth losing his services. I'd much sooner trade one of the big three and get a good return, balanced scoring and some cap space then trade Kelly for nothing. All your other guys can go, but not Kelly.

I voted to tank and try to get Hedman or Tavares. This still would not stop us from doing most of the others things on the list but it would be a good start.

What message does tanking send Winchester, Foligno, Elliott, Bass, Lee, and Picard? These are building blocks all in their first full year. If the Sens got accused of tanking, again, the fan base would be lost.

Moving Fisher would be my #1 priority. The cap relief would be enough, but if you could get a good prospect, so much the better.

I think the team still has an outside shot at catching Buffalo, but I hope Murray dumps any UFA he has no intention of keeping. I'm thinking Neil, Kuba, and Gerber are obvious goners.

Jordo wrote:
No Heater. I can't agree with you here. Chris Kelly for 2mil long term is a ridiculous deal for what he does for this team. There's no value in trading him- we might get like a 2nd rd pick for him, what's that worth? He's one of our few GOOD depth guys. It's my opinion that what we will get in return for Kelly is not worth losing his services. I'd much sooner trade one of the big three and get a good return, balanced scoring and some cap space then trade Kelly for nothing. All your other guys can go, but not Kelly.

I have nothing against Kelly as a player, but at 2.1 million, you might be better served moving someone like Z.Smith in to be the checker - or McAmmond if you retain him. Or you could do what every other team does and sign a Yelle style player for a million.

I think you'd find the difference quite small if at all.

The strategy that Murray took was an odd one. You're really not supposed to be paying 3rd liners more than 1.5 - and even that can be a stretch. Pay the superstars and cultivate the young guys and experienced vets to fill in the gaps.

davetherave wrote:Luke Schenn is turning out to be a brilliant acquisition for Toronto. Is there a kid like that out there?

Yes. His name is Jared Cowen and he's currently the third over-all rated player in the 2009 NHL Entry Draft.

I'm proud to call myself one of the most outspoken members of Tank Nation. :D

I was under the impression that Cowen had dropped and was now 4th overall in just the North American ratings. Overall, I think he's more like 5 or 6....I could be wrong though.

504Heater wrote:

Jordo wrote:
No Heater. I can't agree with you here. Chris Kelly for 2mil long term is a ridiculous deal for what he does for this team. There's no value in trading him- we might get like a 2nd rd pick for him, what's that worth? He's one of our few GOOD depth guys. It's my opinion that what we will get in return for Kelly is not worth losing his services. I'd much sooner trade one of the big three and get a good return, balanced scoring and some cap space then trade Kelly for nothing. All your other guys can go, but not Kelly.

I have nothing against Kelly as a player, but at 2.1 million, you might be better served moving someone like Z.Smith in to be the checker - or McAmmond if you retain him. Or you could do what every other team does and sign a Yelle style player for a million.

I think you'd find the difference quite small if at all.

The strategy that Murray took was an odd one. You're really not supposed to be paying 3rd liners more than 1.5 - and even that can be a stretch. Pay the superstars and cultivate the young guys and experienced vets to fill in the gaps.

Its amazing how many people feel like that. If you believe that, you have to watch him play a lot closer. There are so many scoring chances that he negates through his smart play....
It doesn't mean I wouldn't be open to trading him; it just means I recognize how much of an impact he has on this team. To say you can fill his role with Z.Smith is truly ridiculous. And if McAmmond could fill his role, given his far greater offensive skill, don't you think it would've already happened?

asq2 wrote:

davetherave wrote:Luke Schenn is turning out to be a brilliant acquisition for Toronto. Is there a kid like that out there?

Yes. His name is Jared Cowen and he's currently the third over-all rated player in the 2009 NHL Entry Draft.

I'm proud to call myself one of the most outspoken members of Tank Nation. :D

Yes, Jared Cowan is an excellent choice.

My suggestions re:trades, UFAs, prospects, picks...

Vermette to Chicago for Cam Barker
Neil to San Jose for Alexei Semenov
Fisher to Columbus for Nikita Filatov

UFAs targeted: Francois Beauchemin, Manny Fernandez, Brian Boucher

Trade up for Hedman
Draft picks: Jared Cowen, Brayden Schenn
European prospects: G Jaroslav Janus (Slovak WJs), G Andrei Yankov (Kazakh WJs)

Thoughts and specific suggestions from our posters?

davetherave wrote:

asq2 wrote:

davetherave wrote:Luke Schenn is turning out to be a brilliant acquisition for Toronto. Is there a kid like that out there?

Yes. His name is Jared Cowen and he's currently the third over-all rated player in the 2009 NHL Entry Draft.

I'm proud to call myself one of the most outspoken members of Tank Nation. :D

Yes, Jared Cowan is an excellent choice.

My suggestions re:trades, UFAs, prospects, picks...

Vermette to Chicago for Cam Barker
Neil to San Jose for Alexei Semenov
Fisher to Columbus for Nikita Filatov

UFAs targeted: Francois Beauchemin, Manny Fernandez, Brian Boucher

Trade up for Hedman
Draft picks: Jared Cowen, Brayden Schenn
European prospects: G Jaroslav Janus (Slovak WJs), G Andrei Yankov (Kazakh WJs)

Thoughts and specific suggestions from our posters?

You might wanna add our 1st round pick with Mike Fisher

marakh wrote:

You might wanna add our 1st round pick with Mike Fisher

You think Columbus needs to be persuaded that badly to swap Fisher for Filatov? :pirat:

davetherave wrote:

asq2 wrote:

davetherave wrote:Luke Schenn is turning out to be a brilliant acquisition for Toronto. Is there a kid like that out there?

Yes. His name is Jared Cowen and he's currently the third over-all rated player in the 2009 NHL Entry Draft.

I'm proud to call myself one of the most outspoken members of Tank Nation. :D

Yes, Jared Cowan is an excellent choice.

My suggestions re:trades, UFAs, prospects, picks...

Vermette to Chicago for Cam Barker
Neil to San Jose for Alexei Semenov
Fisher to Columbus for Nikita Filatov

UFAs targeted: Francois Beauchemin, Manny Fernandez, Brian Boucher

Trade up for Hedman
Draft picks: Jared Cowen, Brayden Schenn
European prospects: G Jaroslav Janus (Slovak WJs), G Andrei Yankov (Kazakh WJs)

Thoughts and specific suggestions from our posters?

The goalie from Kaz was 129lbs, he isnt a prospect, he is barly a teenager. If any team actually drove the net on Kaz, the scores would have been worse than they actually were.

Janus, he had a stretch of 7 games where he played well and he has been around for a while. Scouts see him everyday bevcause he plays for Erie, there isnt anything that special about him honestly. He played well in the WJC, but way better options than him in goal.

davetherave wrote:

asq2 wrote:

davetherave wrote:Luke Schenn is turning out to be a brilliant acquisition for Toronto. Is there a kid like that out there?

Yes. His name is Jared Cowen and he's currently the third over-all rated player in the 2009 NHL Entry Draft.

I'm proud to call myself one of the most outspoken members of Tank Nation. :D

Yes, Jared Cowan is an excellent choice.

My suggestions re:trades, UFAs, prospects, picks...

Vermette to Chicago for Cam Barker
Neil to San Jose for Alexei Semenov
Fisher to Columbus for Nikita Filatov

UFAs targeted: Francois Beauchemin, Manny Fernandez, Brian Boucher

Trade up for Hedman
Draft picks: Jared Cowen, Brayden Schenn
European prospects: G Jaroslav Janus (Slovak WJs), G Andrei Yankov (Kazakh WJs)

Thoughts and specific suggestions from our posters?

Columbus counters with Frederick Modin for Jason Spezza.

No way on earth we're getting Hedman, Cowen and Schenn either.

Neely4Life wrote:

The goalie from Kaz was 129lbs, he isnt a prospect, he is barly a teenager. If any team actually drove the net on Kaz, the scores would have been worse than they actually were.

Janus, he had a stretch of 7 games where he played well and he has been around for a while. Scouts see him everyday bevcause he plays for Erie, there isnt anything that special about him honestly. He played well in the WJC, but way better options than him in goal.

Interesting response...IMHO Janus looked pretty good at the WJC; Yankov played well for an outclassed squad. Their competitiveness would make them suitable later round picks.

Who are your suggestions, and how would you address the other points cited? :pirat:

asq2 wrote:
Fisher to Columbus for Nikita Filatov

UFAs targeted: Francois Beauchemin, Manny Fernandez, Brian Boucher

Trade up for Hedman
Draft picks: Jared Cowen, Brayden Schenn
European prospects: G Jaroslav Janus (Slovak WJs), G Andrei Yankov (Kazakh WJs)

Thoughts and specific suggestions from our posters?

Columbus counters with Frederick Modin for Jason Spezza.

No way on earth we're getting Hedman, Cowen and Schenn either.

OK, these are suggestions...not assuming all are possible.

You're joking about Modin and Spezza of course.

What do you propose?

davetherave wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:

The goalie from Kaz was 129lbs, he isnt a prospect, he is barly a teenager. If any team actually drove the net on Kaz, the scores would have been worse than they actually were.

Janus, he had a stretch of 7 games where he played well and he has been around for a while. Scouts see him everyday bevcause he plays for Erie, there isnt anything that special about him honestly. He played well in the WJC, but way better options than him in goal.

Interesting response...IMHO Janus looked pretty good at the WJC; Yankov played well for an outclassed squad. Their competitiveness would make them suitable later round picks.

Who are your suggestions, and how would you address the other points cited? :pirat:

Canada, USA, even Germany took it easy on Kaz. Their goalie was about the equilivilant to a Jr B goalie. The team was outclassed and sure, it was nice to see the kid make some saves, but if any of those teams play with any kind of effort or with any kid of intensity the scores would have been worse.

Janus is alright, would be a decent late round pick, but where he will go in the draft because of his WJC is a bad pick IMO. He will go in round 3 or 4 I believe, and he isnt any better than a 6th or a 7th.

I dont think the Sens should be going out any signing any other free agents unless its that PMD they are looking for. Their goaltending tandom next year is Elliott and Auld, and there is no reason it shouldnt be. They have younf guys who can step in and play the roles of Neil, McAmmond and Schubert.

There is a lot more that needs to be done to the team, but it is going to be done by trades or from within.

cash wrote:Its amazing how many people feel like that. If you believe that, you have to watch him play a lot closer. There are so many scoring chances that he negates through his smart play....
It doesn't mean I wouldn't be open to trading him; it just means I recognize how much of an impact he has on this team. To say you can fill his role with Z.Smith is truly ridiculous. And if McAmmond could fill his role, given his far greater offensive skill, don't you think it would've already happened?

What would truly be the difference better Chris Kelly and Stephane Yelle other than age? 1.1 million in cap savings comes to mind. Kelly is smart and hard working, but 2.1 million? I dunno about that.

Thanks...hope you voted in the poll!

davetherave wrote:

asq2 wrote:
Fisher to Columbus for Nikita Filatov

UFAs targeted: Francois Beauchemin, Manny Fernandez, Brian Boucher

Trade up for Hedman
Draft picks: Jared Cowen, Brayden Schenn
European prospects: G Jaroslav Janus (Slovak WJs), G Andrei Yankov (Kazakh WJs)

Thoughts and specific suggestions from our posters?

Columbus counters with Frederick Modin for Jason Spezza.

No way on earth we're getting Hedman, Cowen and Schenn either.

OK, these are suggestions...not assuming all are possible.

You're joking about Modin and Spezza of course.

What do you propose?

If Kuba won't resign:
Vermette and Kuba to Columbus for their first and third, maybe more.

Draft one of Hedman, Tavares, Cowen, MSP, Schroeder, Duchene, Schenn, Kane
If neither MSP nor Schroeder are taken, take at least one winger in the first round (maybe a Kassian or Ferraro).

Take a goalie like Roy or Lee in a later round.

Ideally start next season with Regin, Zubov, Lee, and Elliott here.

We're not going to be good next season unless we deal away all of our top assets. I just don't think we can re-build this team through UFA. The draft is the way to go.