GAME DAY: Dallas Stars @ Ottawa Senators - 7:00pm Dec. 20th, 2008

Regardless, I don't think a patch work band-aid solution will help either. Trying to make this years team competitive will fail IMO. Trying to patch it together again in the offseason will likely not work to well either IMO. What is the solution?

It's a shame...but you are bang on MurderOnIce...this city is terrible when it comes to losing teams...we don't have the T.O. junkies or crazy Habs fans...

if this team tanks for too long...we could lose it...

hopefully the band-wagon fans stay long enought for a re-build...if not we are screwed up the pooper...

Cap'n Clutch wrote:Regardless, I don't think a patch work band-aid solution will help either. Trying to make this years team competitive will fail IMO. Trying to patch it together again in the offseason will likely not work to well either IMO. What is the solution?

start the re-build almost immediately...

I really cannot see this squad winning...so many players need to go it isn't funny...

and all those who think that one player or two will make a huge difference they are silly...it is obvious that 80% of this team cannot handle a funk...so if they were to stay around...and eneter another funk...the same thing will happen...

the team needs a fresh start...and so do many of the players...

Cap'n Clutch wrote:I haven't read through all 8 pages so this may have already been discussed. Anyone else think that game looked like neither team deserved the win? And if someone tries to tell me they're showcasing Gerber then I might just lose my mind. Gerber has zero value and if it's possible his value drops below that almost every game he plays. The only goal that wasn't suspect was the 4th goal when Dallas tied the game. Even that one he should have come up with a big save at a key time in the game.

I'd say that "Neither goalie deserved the win" would be much more appropriate.

asq2 wrote:

dirtydirtynorth wrote:We don't need to blow up this team, and we don't need a major rebuilding... We need a little more than a tweak... We also don't have to clear house in order to lose... Quite unfortunately/fortunately, if we want to lose, all we have to do is start Gerber... It may sound like a joke, but it is true.

We need one of those Philadelphia Flyers rebuilds; where they were crappy for one season, but then made the playoffs the next. They had a couple prospects mature (Carter and Richards), signed a couple of solid free agents (Briere and Timmonen) and acquired a respectable goalie (Biron). But they kept their team intact for the most part.

Granted we don't have as much money available as they did, but it should still be manageable. Karlsson will hopefully be ready. He looked good in that World Juniors game, although the tournament will be a better judge. He seems to have put on some weight, he didn't look 160 lbs anymore. Zubov should stay up here the rest of the season, let him hone his skills against bigger players and will be set for a breakout next season. And we'll have to wait and see how Elliott progresses.

As for the Spezza situation, in order to maximize return, trading him at the deadline would be the best. I don't believe that Spezza for Bogosian and Atlanta's first is realistic because you're asking Atlanta to just trade over the future of their team: trading a 'franchise' D in B and potential 'generational' D in Hedman. I believe that we could get Lehtonen and their 1st, since they are so high on Pavelec. The only question is do we want to take the chance on Lehtonen staying healthy. But this would be a draft day deal. The highest return would come at the trade deadline, as last year Hossa fetched Esposito, Armstrong, Christensen and a 1st, for a rental. And the year before that, Forsberg fetched Upshall, Parent, a 1st and a 3rd, also for a rental. Spezza should in theory fetch more as he is younger, and is signed on long term and a reasonable contract.

Re-creating the Flyers' re-build is nigh on impossible.

We don't have a Carter or Richards in the system. Spezza is probably the most comparable in terms of skill in our organization.

Karlsson will be 19 years old and probably 170-180lbs next season. You can't expect him to be a difference maker at that point. As for Zubov, the possibility of a sophomore slump is quite high.

Finally, Philly absolutely fleeced Nashville in a number of trades. I don't think you can plan on making an un-even deal.

Hossa and Forsberg were UFAs and were probably not going to re-sign. Spezza is signed for 7 years. I don't like the idea of trading him at the deadline at all.

The reason Philly fleeced Nashville was because Nashville was going through a sale and were trying to ditch salary and long term contracts. Florida is currently rumoured to be looking to ditch salary as well, and we have prospects and a couple players that could interest them.

We don't have a Carter or a Richards in the system, you are right. But trading Spezza I would assume we would get one back. I'm not really sure why you don't like the idea of trading him at the deadline though, we'll get greater return. And it is for the reason that he is signed for 7 years that we'll get such great return. If we were to trade him to a young team that is trying to make the playoffs. I look at a team like Phoenix, who has a solid core, good leadership, and could use a push in order to be a contender. They also have the cap room. I'll probably be laughed at and mocked for this, but if you really think about it, I don't believe it is all that absurd. Trade Spezza for Turris, Summers/Ross, and their 1st.

Now i'm sure people are going to freak out and rip into me because of the Turris hype, but if you think about it, Spezza is a proven franchise centre and has over a pt/g career. That's fact, there is no disputing that. Turris has the potential to be that, but he's not that now, and that is also fact. Spezza's 'rookie' year, at age 19, where he played 33 games on the 3rd line, he produced 21 pts, in while averaging 12:40 per game. Currently, Turris has 11 pts in 31 games, while averaging 12:48 per game. Spezza would provide Phoenix with two extremely dangerous lines, made up of: Jokinen, Spezza, Doan, Mueller, Reinprecht, and Boedker.

Both Summers and Ross are thought of as better prospects than Lee, according to hockey's future.

Phoenix's first should translate to a 17-22nd pick.

And that would also translate to another 4.5 million in cap space, which if we don't re-sign Kuba and Gerber (total of $11.2M), is enough to sign one or two quality free agents.

dirtydirtynorth wrote:

asq2 wrote:

dirtydirtynorth wrote:We don't need to blow up this team, and we don't need a major rebuilding... We need a little more than a tweak... We also don't have to clear house in order to lose... Quite unfortunately/fortunately, if we want to lose, all we have to do is start Gerber... It may sound like a joke, but it is true.

We need one of those Philadelphia Flyers rebuilds; where they were crappy for one season, but then made the playoffs the next. They had a couple prospects mature (Carter and Richards), signed a couple of solid free agents (Briere and Timmonen) and acquired a respectable goalie (Biron). But they kept their team intact for the most part.

Granted we don't have as much money available as they did, but it should still be manageable. Karlsson will hopefully be ready. He looked good in that World Juniors game, although the tournament will be a better judge. He seems to have put on some weight, he didn't look 160 lbs anymore. Zubov should stay up here the rest of the season, let him hone his skills against bigger players and will be set for a breakout next season. And we'll have to wait and see how Elliott progresses.

As for the Spezza situation, in order to maximize return, trading him at the deadline would be the best. I don't believe that Spezza for Bogosian and Atlanta's first is realistic because you're asking Atlanta to just trade over the future of their team: trading a 'franchise' D in B and potential 'generational' D in Hedman. I believe that we could get Lehtonen and their 1st, since they are so high on Pavelec. The only question is do we want to take the chance on Lehtonen staying healthy. But this would be a draft day deal. The highest return would come at the trade deadline, as last year Hossa fetched Esposito, Armstrong, Christensen and a 1st, for a rental. And the year before that, Forsberg fetched Upshall, Parent, a 1st and a 3rd, also for a rental. Spezza should in theory fetch more as he is younger, and is signed on long term and a reasonable contract.

Re-creating the Flyers' re-build is nigh on impossible.

We don't have a Carter or Richards in the system. Spezza is probably the most comparable in terms of skill in our organization.

Karlsson will be 19 years old and probably 170-180lbs next season. You can't expect him to be a difference maker at that point. As for Zubov, the possibility of a sophomore slump is quite high.

Finally, Philly absolutely fleeced Nashville in a number of trades. I don't think you can plan on making an un-even deal.

Hossa and Forsberg were UFAs and were probably not going to re-sign. Spezza is signed for 7 years. I don't like the idea of trading him at the deadline at all.

The reason Philly fleeced Nashville was because Nashville was going through a sale and were trying to ditch salary and long term contracts. Florida is currently rumoured to be looking to ditch salary as well, and we have prospects and a couple players that could interest them.

We don't have a Carter or a Richards in the system, you are right. But trading Spezza I would assume we would get one back. I'm not really sure why you don't like the idea of trading him at the deadline though, we'll get greater return. And it is for the reason that he is signed for 7 years that we'll get such great return. If we were to trade him to a young team that is trying to make the playoffs. I look at a team like Phoenix, who has a solid core, good leadership, and could use a push in order to be a contender. They also have the cap room. I'll probably be laughed at and mocked for this, but if you really think about it, I don't believe it is all that absurd. Trade Spezza for Turris, Summers/Ross, and their 1st.

Now i'm sure people are going to freak out and rip into me because of the Turris hype, but if you think about it, Spezza is a proven franchise centre and has over a pt/g career. That's fact, there is no disputing that. Turris has the potential to be that, but he's not that now, and that is also fact. Spezza's 'rookie' year, at age 19, where he played 33 games on the 3rd line, he produced 21 pts, in while averaging 12:40 per game. Currently, Turris has 11 pts in 31 games, while averaging 12:48 per game. Spezza would provide Phoenix with two extremely dangerous lines, made up of: Jokinen, Spezza, Doan, Mueller, Reinprecht, and Boedker.

Both Summers and Ross are thought of as better prospects than Lee, according to hockey's future.

Phoenix's first should translate to a 17-22nd pick.

And that would also translate to another 4.5 million in cap space, which if we don't re-sign Kuba and Gerber (total of $11.2M), is enough to sign one or two quality free agents.

I'm listening Dirty...

dirtydirtynorth wrote:The reason Philly fleeced Nashville was because Nashville was going through a sale and were trying to ditch salary and long term contracts. Florida is currently rumoured to be looking to ditch salary as well, and we have prospects and a couple players that could interest them.

We don't have a Carter or a Richards in the system, you are right. But trading Spezza I would assume we would get one back. I'm not really sure why you don't like the idea of trading him at the deadline though, we'll get greater return. And it is for the reason that he is signed for 7 years that we'll get such great return. If we were to trade him to a young team that is trying to make the playoffs. I look at a team like Phoenix, who has a solid core, good leadership, and could use a push in order to be a contender. They also have the cap room. I'll probably be laughed at and mocked for this, but if you really think about it, I don't believe it is all that absurd. Trade Spezza for Turris, Summers/Ross, and their 1st.

Now i'm sure people are going to freak out and rip into me because of the Turris hype, but if you think about it, Spezza is a proven franchise centre and has over a pt/g career. That's fact, there is no disputing that. Turris has the potential to be that, but he's not that now, and that is also fact. Spezza's 'rookie' year, at age 19, where he played 33 games on the 3rd line, he produced 21 pts, in while averaging 12:40 per game. Currently, Turris has 11 pts in 31 games, while averaging 12:48 per game. Spezza would provide Phoenix with two extremely dangerous lines, made up of: Jokinen, Spezza, Doan, Mueller, Reinprecht, and Boedker.

Both Summers and Ross are thought of as better prospects than Lee, according to hockey's future.

Phoenix's first should translate to a 17-22nd pick.

And that would also translate to another 4.5 million in cap space, which if we don't re-sign Kuba and Gerber (total of $11.2M), is enough to sign one or two quality free agents.

I'm not sure it's the Turris hype but rather how much Phoenix (and Gretzky) love the guy.

COLLAR UP wrote:I'm listening Dirty...

You mean people do care... *single tear and whimper*

asq2 wrote:

dirtydirtynorth wrote:The reason Philly fleeced Nashville was because Nashville was going through a sale and were trying to ditch salary and long term contracts. Florida is currently rumoured to be looking to ditch salary as well, and we have prospects and a couple players that could interest them.

We don't have a Carter or a Richards in the system, you are right. But trading Spezza I would assume we would get one back. I'm not really sure why you don't like the idea of trading him at the deadline though, we'll get greater return. And it is for the reason that he is signed for 7 years that we'll get such great return. If we were to trade him to a young team that is trying to make the playoffs. I look at a team like Phoenix, who has a solid core, good leadership, and could use a push in order to be a contender. They also have the cap room. I'll probably be laughed at and mocked for this, but if you really think about it, I don't believe it is all that absurd. Trade Spezza for Turris, Summers/Ross, and their 1st.

Now i'm sure people are going to freak out and rip into me because of the Turris hype, but if you think about it, Spezza is a proven franchise centre and has over a pt/g career. That's fact, there is no disputing that. Turris has the potential to be that, but he's not that now, and that is also fact. Spezza's 'rookie' year, at age 19, where he played 33 games on the 3rd line, he produced 21 pts, in while averaging 12:40 per game. Currently, Turris has 11 pts in 31 games, while averaging 12:48 per game. Spezza would provide Phoenix with two extremely dangerous lines, made up of: Jokinen, Spezza, Doan, Mueller, Reinprecht, and Boedker.

Both Summers and Ross are thought of as better prospects than Lee, according to hockey's future.

Phoenix's first should translate to a 17-22nd pick.

And that would also translate to another 4.5 million in cap space, which if we don't re-sign Kuba and Gerber (total of $11.2M), is enough to sign one or two quality free agents.

I'm not sure it's the Turris hype but rather how much Phoenix (and Gretzky) love the guy.

That's true... Stupid Gretzky...

I didn't mean that.

asq2 wrote:I'm not sure it's the Turris hype but rather how much Phoenix (and Gretzky) love the guy.

Is the reason you don't want to trade Spezza at the deadline because if we trade him at the draft we could get first overall with certainty?

Bass Destruction (dirtyno wrote:

asq2 wrote:I'm not sure it's the Turris hype but rather how much Phoenix (and Gretzky) love the guy.

Is the reason you don't want to trade Spezza at the deadline because if we trade him at the draft we could get first overall with certainty?

My concern is as follows: Spezza has been disappointing this year (much like the whole team) but I don't think there's much question that he is a star and quite valuable. He has the potential to be a franchise centreman and is the building block of this team going forward.

Whether people like that or not is one thing, but we need someone to build around. Deals like the Hossa and Forsberg ones had decent returns but had complementary players coming back at best. I do'nt want Spezza to be dealt for complementary pieces.

Teams that are drafting that high often have attendance concerns and money issues. And while a draft pick would be cheaper than Spezza, they might not want to wait long enough for the pick to emerge (seeing Stamkos' struggles this year) and so will take a guy like Spezza who is proven, still relatively young, and in no danger of leaving the team. Atlanta, for one, could be willing to sacrifice a pick to try to convince Kovalchuk to stay by getting him a centre of (near) his calibre.

However, there is the concern at the deadline that dealing Spezza for picks will improve the other team, thus causing their pick to be of less value. It could be the difference between, say, Hedman and maybe the 6th or 7th over-all, which I'm not sure I'd be willing to deal Spezza for. At the draft, the picks are more settled, so we have more certainty in regards to who we're targetting. I would then gladly add assets like Lee, Vermette or SJs first in order to get Hedman.

EDIT: So yeah, it's not necessarily that we'd get the first over-all pick, but we'd have more certainty in regards to the return and then could decide whether it's worth it to trade him or not. Otherwise, you're taking a chance.

asq2 wrote:

Bass Destruction (dirtyno wrote:

asq2 wrote:I'm not sure it's the Turris hype but rather how much Phoenix (and Gretzky) love the guy.

Is the reason you don't want to trade Spezza at the deadline because if we trade him at the draft we could get first overall with certainty?

My concern is as follows: Spezza has been disappointing this year (much like the whole team) but I don't think there's much question that he is a star and quite valuable. He has the potential to be a franchise centreman and is the building block of this team going forward.

Whether people like that or not is one thing, but we need someone to build around. Deals like the Hossa and Forsberg ones had decent returns but had complementary players coming back at best. I do'nt want Spezza to be dealt for complementary pieces.

Teams that are drafting that high often have attendance concerns and money issues. And while a draft pick would be cheaper than Spezza, they might not want to wait long enough for the pick to emerge (seeing Stamkos' struggles this year) and so will take a guy like Spezza who is proven, still relatively young, and in no danger of leaving the team. Atlanta, for one, could be willing to sacrifice a pick to try to convince Kovalchuk to stay by getting him a centre of (near) his calibre.

However, there is the concern at the deadline that dealing Spezza for picks will improve the other team, thus causing their pick to be of less value. It could be the difference between, say, Hedman and maybe the 6th or 7th over-all, which I'm not sure I'd be willing to deal Spezza for. At the draft, the picks are more settled, so we have more certainty in regards to who we're targetting. I would then gladly add assets like Lee, Vermette or SJs first in order to get Hedman.

EDIT: So yeah, it's not necessarily that we'd get the first over-all pick, but we'd have more certainty in regards to the return and then could decide whether it's worth it to trade him or not. Otherwise, you're taking a chance.

Those are good points. I just want to say that I am not someone that undervalues Spezza. I used to be in the mind that I would only trade Spezza for 3 players in this league: Lundqvist, Miller, or Luongo. What has scared me recently, is not the fact that the stats are not there, but it is the money and cap going down. Spezza is an absolute bargain at $7M a year, huge bargain in my opinion. And with all these other players (Alfie, Heater, Fisher) tied up for so much money and NTC, with no goalie (Auld is barely satisfactory for now), means not much cap space to improve with. Spezza is our only option to decrease in significant salary. There are other paths we could take to clear space, we'll lose Kuba and Gerbs at the end of the year (6.7M) and we could trade Vermette, Kelly and Smith (7.4M) but Spezza's 7M would open up a lot of new options. I'm also scared that July 1st will roll around, the cap goes down, and we have 4 players with NTC worth just under half the cap. And if we continue to struggle next year, then we're screwed.

If we trade Spezza for Hedman I sure hope he becomes what you feel he can become.

There is a possibility of him busting, certainly, as there is with all prospects, but yeah, I believe Hedman can exceed Spezza, Heatley or even Alfie.

As far as goalies go, I'm willing to go with Auld now and Elliott later. If it doesn't work out, you have a lot of time to get goaltending in order considering your franchise player (Hedman) should have at least 15 years of hockey in him if all goes as expected.

asq2 wrote:There is a possibility of him busting, certainly, as there is with all prospects, but yeah, I believe Hedman can exceed Spezza, Heatley or even Alfie.

As far as goalies go, I'm willing to go with Auld now and Elliott later. If it doesn't work out, you have a lot of time to get goaltending in order considering your franchise player (Hedman) should have at least 15 years of hockey in him if all goes as expected.

You really seem to have a hard on for Hedman.

You believe he can surpass our big three based on what? What the scouts say or have you watched him play extensively.

What the scouts say has a lot to do with it, but I have also watched him play.

Just looking at his assets, it's hard to not be impressed. He's like JayBo, only bigger. I believe he can surpass the big three, not necessarily that he will.

I'm a believer in building from the net outward and I think we seem to be pretty happy with Elliott. If we are interested in a re-build, then, Hedman seems like the logical next acquisition. His age has a lot to do with that. Alfredsson is certainly not our guy moving forward (being 36), Heatley is now 27 and nobody seems to be all that happy with 25-year-old Spezza. Considering we're not winning anything in the short-term, we need a long-term plan for success, and Hedman/Karlsson/Wiercioch/Lee + potentially a forward from the 2010 draft + Elliott + guys like Regin, O'Brien, Zubov and returns for current players could be that plan.

Am I over-hyping him? Almost certainly. But I do believe he will be a great player.