GAME DAY: Dallas Stars @ Ottawa Senators - 7:00pm Dec. 20th, 2008

Yeah he definitely took a half-rink run at him, but it was no different than Neil on Little. Alfie turned maybe a half-second before being put into the boards. In a game like this, its impossibly tough to differentiate intention in split-seconds as a referee. I personally believe he had enough time to let off a little bit before he went through with it, however I've had the luxury of looking at it 8-10 times, from different angles and in slow motion. So, regardless of what may have actually happened, real time calls aren't as easy as we make them out to be...
In that moment, at full game speed, in real time, it looked like a good hit and a player who turned into the boards. I can't criticize the refs for that one...

Oh and the solution I think is for Spezza to shoot more. As he does so, he legitimizes himself as a scoring threat and halts the opposition from telegraphing his intention with he puck, which is pretty much the same every time he's out there... Likewise, the goalies have Heatley telegraphed because they know he's going to try to rip a one timer every Diddle chance he gets. They are cheating, but leaving a return feed or a delayed snap shot wide open.
Again, real time changes the dynamic and players fall into their habits. Our problem is simply that our two most prolific scorers are so damn predictable. If they can exercise some discpline and try something different, they will be more successful and far more dangerous.

I haven't read through all 8 pages so this may have already been discussed. Anyone else think that game looked like neither team deserved the win? And if someone tries to tell me they're showcasing Gerber then I might just lose my mind. Gerber has zero value and if it's possible his value drops below that almost every game he plays. The only goal that wasn't suspect was the 4th goal when Dallas tied the game. Even that one he should have come up with a big save at a key time in the game.

Cap'n Clutch wrote:I haven't read through all 8 pages so this may have already been discussed. Anyone else think that game looked like neither team deserved the win? And if someone tries to tell me they're showcasing Gerber then I might just lose my mind. Gerber has zero value and if it's possible his value drops below that almost every game he plays. The only goal that wasn't suspect was the 4th goal when Dallas tied the game. Even that one he should have come up with a big save at a key time in the game.

No, I think as much as the sens didn't play their best, they were clearly better than Dallas... That game should have been about 3 or 4 to 1... Turco let in a few softies too, but Gerber's goals were absolute garbage, a real NHL goalie makes those stops.. Especially that one on Niskanen.. Those deflate a team so badly, I'm surprised we managed to battle back.. To me the team didn't play that bad, but Gerber on the hand.. 2 of those goals I blame squarly on Gerber, our D was running around a bit, but hey that's when you need your goalie to step up.. Gerber cannot do so... enough is enough....

I don't really care anymore who deserves to win. I just want to see my team win. And I'm willing to change a few things to see that happen.

I'm personally ready to write off this season. Trade Vermette for a prospect or pick. Trade Kelly, McAmmond and Schubert if you can. Waive Gerber and give Elliot half the starts from here on out. Trade Spezza at the draft and with our own pick (likely top 5) plus picks, prospect and player we get for Spezza likely another at least top 10 pick. Let the young guys play out this season to ensure a top 5 pick and away we go for next season.

Cap'n Clutch wrote:I'm personally ready to write off this season. Trade Vermette for a prospect or pick. Trade Kelly, McAmmond and Schubert if you can. Waive Gerber and give Elliot half the starts from here on out. Trade Spezza at the draft and with our own pick (likely top 5) plus picks, prospect and player we get for Spezza likely another at least top 10 pick. Let the young guys play out this season to ensure a top 5 pick and away we go for next season.

I am almost in agreement but I am concerned about the fanbase. Not the diehards but the casual fan here does not support anything but a winner. This team is almost unable to reload and rebuild, attendance will drop and we may lose them. I have seen the Rough Riders/Renegades leave multiple times, The Lynx and almost the Senators. Sure Melnyk has deep pockets and is committed to the team but he is also a business man. The novelty of owning a hockey team may wear off if he has a loser on his hands. Not saying that will happen it is just one of those possibilities and then who would be the white knight, Balsille? He will have a team by then. We could maybe take a one year/two year hit but a prolonged Leaf-like malaise would not fly here....

MurderOnIce wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:I'm personally ready to write off this season. Trade Vermette for a prospect or pick. Trade Kelly, McAmmond and Schubert if you can. Waive Gerber and give Elliot half the starts from here on out. Trade Spezza at the draft and with our own pick (likely top 5) plus picks, prospect and player we get for Spezza likely another at least top 10 pick. Let the young guys play out this season to ensure a top 5 pick and away we go for next season.

I am almost in agreement but I am concerned about the fanbase. Not the diehards but the casual fan here does not support anything but a winner. This team is almost unable to reload and rebuild, attendance will drop and we may lose them. I have seen the Rough Riders/Renegades leave multiple times, The Lynx and almost the Senators. Sure Melnyk has deep pockets and is committed to the team but he is also a business man. The novelty of owning a hockey team may wear off if he has a loser on his hands. Not saying that will happen it is just one of those possibilities and then who would be the white knight, Balsille? He will have a team by then. We could maybe take a one year/two year hit but a prolonged Leaf-like malaise would not fly here....

I agree, but who's to say the malaise won't continue as things are currently?

If we tank this year and make those trades, we'll have blue-chippers in the system and quite a lot of money freed up to have a competitive team in the mean-time.

However, in regards to Spezza I would try to trade him with some other assets for a shot at Hedman, rather than for a number of things. Quality > quantity.

I posted this somewhere else...but I thought I'd do it here to...

I have a dream...and a big one at that...so no critics...I know this is fluff...lol...

To Pitts:
Healtey (to play with Cindy)

To Ottawa:
Malkin (drooling badly at this point)

then...

To ATL:
Spezza

To Ottawa:
Bogosian
Little
2008 1st rounder

The Sens then have 3 1st including SJ's...which they could use to hopefully grab either Hedman or Tavares...or at least a high pick...

ok...dream is over...but...I am still drooling immensley...lol

cheers...

We don't need to blow up this team, and we don't need a major rebuilding... We need a little more than a tweak... We also don't have to clear house in order to lose... Quite unfortunately/fortunately, if we want to lose, all we have to do is start Gerber... It may sound like a joke, but it is true.

We need one of those Philadelphia Flyers rebuilds; where they were crappy for one season, but then made the playoffs the next. They had a couple prospects mature (Carter and Richards), signed a couple of solid free agents (Briere and Timmonen) and acquired a respectable goalie (Biron). But they kept their team intact for the most part.

Granted we don't have as much money available as they did, but it should still be manageable. Karlsson will hopefully be ready. He looked good in that World Juniors game, although the tournament will be a better judge. He seems to have put on some weight, he didn't look 160 lbs anymore. Zubov should stay up here the rest of the season, let him hone his skills against bigger players and will be set for a breakout next season. And we'll have to wait and see how Elliott progresses.

As for the Spezza situation, in order to maximize return, trading him at the deadline would be the best. I don't believe that Spezza for Bogosian and Atlanta's first is realistic because you're asking Atlanta to just trade over the future of their team: trading a 'franchise' D in B and potential 'generational' D in Hedman. I believe that we could get Lehtonen and their 1st, since they are so high on Pavelec. The only question is do we want to take the chance on Lehtonen staying healthy. But this would be a draft day deal. The highest return would come at the trade deadline, as last year Hossa fetched Esposito, Armstrong, Christensen and a 1st, for a rental. And the year before that, Forsberg fetched Upshall, Parent, a 1st and a 3rd, also for a rental. Spezza should in theory fetch more as he is younger, and is signed on long term and a reasonable contract.

COLLAR UP wrote:I posted this somewhere else...but I thought I'd do it here to...

I have a dream...and a big one at that...so no critics...I know this is fluff...lol...

To Pitts:
Healtey (to play with Cindy)

To Ottawa:
Malkin (drooling badly at this point)

then...

To ATL:
Spezza

To Ottawa:
Bogosian
Little
2008 1st rounder

The Sens then have 3 1st including SJ's...which they could use to hopefully grab either Hedman or Tavares...or at least a high pick...

ok...dream is over...but...I am still drooling immensley...lol

cheers...

Evgeni Malkin:
22 years old, 32 GP, 15 goals, 55 points, +19
Coming off of a season of 47 goals, 106 points.

Dany Heatley:
27 years old, 31 GP, 14 goals, 29 points, +0
Coming off a season of 41 goals, 82 points (albeit in 71 games)

I fail to see how their values are even remotely comparable.

As for the other deal, Little is 4 years younger, considerably cheaper and currently out-scoring Spezza, and you want a top-5 pick and a potential franchise defenceman from Atlanta's side?

dirtydirtynorth wrote:We don't need to blow up this team, and we don't need a major rebuilding... We need a little more than a tweak... We also don't have to clear house in order to lose... Quite unfortunately/fortunately, if we want to lose, all we have to do is start Gerber... It may sound like a joke, but it is true.

We need one of those Philadelphia Flyers rebuilds; where they were crappy for one season, but then made the playoffs the next. They had a couple prospects mature (Carter and Richards), signed a couple of solid free agents (Briere and Timmonen) and acquired a respectable goalie (Biron). But they kept their team intact for the most part.

Granted we don't have as much money available as they did, but it should still be manageable. Karlsson will hopefully be ready. He looked good in that World Juniors game, although the tournament will be a better judge. He seems to have put on some weight, he didn't look 160 lbs anymore. Zubov should stay up here the rest of the season, let him hone his skills against bigger players and will be set for a breakout next season. And we'll have to wait and see how Elliott progresses.

As for the Spezza situation, in order to maximize return, trading him at the deadline would be the best. I don't believe that Spezza for Bogosian and Atlanta's first is realistic because you're asking Atlanta to just trade over the future of their team: trading a 'franchise' D in B and potential 'generational' D in Hedman. I believe that we could get Lehtonen and their 1st, since they are so high on Pavelec. The only question is do we want to take the chance on Lehtonen staying healthy. But this would be a draft day deal. The highest return would come at the trade deadline, as last year Hossa fetched Esposito, Armstrong, Christensen and a 1st, for a rental. And the year before that, Forsberg fetched Upshall, Parent, a 1st and a 3rd, also for a rental. Spezza should in theory fetch more as he is younger, and is signed on long term and a reasonable contract.

Re-creating the Flyers' re-build is nigh on impossible.

We don't have a Carter or Richards in the system. Spezza is probably the most comparable in terms of skill in our organization.

Karlsson will be 19 years old and probably 170-180lbs next season. You can't expect him to be a difference maker at that point. As for Zubov, the possibility of a sophomore slump is quite high.

Finally, Philly absolutely fleeced Nashville in a number of trades. I don't think you can plan on making an un-even deal.

Hossa and Forsberg were UFAs and were probably not going to re-sign. Spezza is signed for 7 years. I don't like the idea of trading him at the deadline at all.

MurderOnIce wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:I'm personally ready to write off this season. Trade Vermette for a prospect or pick. Trade Kelly, McAmmond and Schubert if you can. Waive Gerber and give Elliot half the starts from here on out. Trade Spezza at the draft and with our own pick (likely top 5) plus picks, prospect and player we get for Spezza likely another at least top 10 pick. Let the young guys play out this season to ensure a top 5 pick and away we go for next season.

I am almost in agreement but I am concerned about the fanbase. Not the diehards but the casual fan here does not support anything but a winner. This team is almost unable to reload and rebuild, attendance will drop and we may lose them. I have seen the Rough Riders/Renegades leave multiple times, The Lynx and almost the Senators. Sure Melnyk has deep pockets and is committed to the team but he is also a business man. The novelty of owning a hockey team may wear off if he has a loser on his hands. Not saying that will happen it is just one of those possibilities and then who would be the white knight, Balsille? He will have a team by then. We could maybe take a one year/two year hit but a prolonged Leaf-like malaise would not fly here....

We may suffer through some low attendance the rest of this year and possibly the next but I don't think it would last much more than that and I doubt Melnyk would bail that quickly do you?

asq2 wrote:

COLLAR UP wrote:I posted this somewhere else...but I thought I'd do it here to...

I have a dream...and a big one at that...so no critics...I know this is fluff...lol...

To Pitts:
Healtey (to play with Cindy)

To Ottawa:
Malkin (drooling badly at this point)

then...

To ATL:
Spezza

To Ottawa:
Bogosian
Little
2008 1st rounder

The Sens then have 3 1st including SJ's...which they could use to hopefully grab either Hedman or Tavares...or at least a high pick...

ok...dream is over...but...I am still drooling immensley...lol

cheers...

Evgeni Malkin:
22 years old, 32 GP, 15 goals, 55 points, +19
Coming off of a season of 47 goals, 106 points.

Dany Heatley:
27 years old, 31 GP, 14 goals, 29 points, +0
Coming off a season of 41 goals, 82 points (albeit in 71 games)

I fail to see how their values are even remotely comparable.

As for the other deal, Little is 4 years younger, considerably cheaper and currently out-scoring Spezza, and you want a top-5 pick and a potential franchise defenceman from Atlanta's side?

as I said asq...one can ndream...I never said it was realistic...not at all...

so again...I'll repeat myself for you...ONE CAN DREAM!!

Cap'n Clutch wrote:

MurderOnIce wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:I'm personally ready to write off this season. Trade Vermette for a prospect or pick. Trade Kelly, McAmmond and Schubert if you can. Waive Gerber and give Elliot half the starts from here on out. Trade Spezza at the draft and with our own pick (likely top 5) plus picks, prospect and player we get for Spezza likely another at least top 10 pick. Let the young guys play out this season to ensure a top 5 pick and away we go for next season.

I am almost in agreement but I am concerned about the fanbase. Not the diehards but the casual fan here does not support anything but a winner. This team is almost unable to reload and rebuild, attendance will drop and we may lose them. I have seen the Rough Riders/Renegades leave multiple times, The Lynx and almost the Senators. Sure Melnyk has deep pockets and is committed to the team but he is also a business man. The novelty of owning a hockey team may wear off if he has a loser on his hands. Not saying that will happen it is just one of those possibilities and then who would be the white knight, Balsille? He will have a team by then. We could maybe take a one year/two year hit but a prolonged Leaf-like malaise would not fly here....

We may suffer through some low attendance the rest of this year and possibly the next but I don't think it would last much more than that and I doubt Melnyk would bail that quickly do you?

I think we will slowly lose attendance numbers this year and next would be worse. Tough economic times would force us to make tough decsions and suddenly the Senators are not only an expensive ticket but no longer the 'thing' to do in Ottawa. Then the vicious circle of justifying the payroll versus attendance starts (business is business). Then without results Melnyk starts to feel the city doesn't care about the team and then moving/selling it becomes an option.

I am a bit of a chicken little, but I could see it happen down the road and I would be crushed as a hockey fan. Fan patience and loyalty is not a strong suit of our city (just being honest). We nearly lost the team once and were saved by a guy with deep pockets and a desire to be a winner. If either of those things disappear, the city will be in real trouble of losing this club.

Regardless, I don't think a patch work band-aid solution will help either. Trying to make this years team competitive will fail IMO. Trying to patch it together again in the offseason will likely not work to well either IMO. What is the solution?

It's a shame...but you are bang on MurderOnIce...this city is terrible when it comes to losing teams...we don't have the T.O. junkies or crazy Habs fans...

if this team tanks for too long...we could lose it...

hopefully the band-wagon fans stay long enought for a re-build...if not we are screwed up the pooper...

Cap'n Clutch wrote:Regardless, I don't think a patch work band-aid solution will help either. Trying to make this years team competitive will fail IMO. Trying to patch it together again in the offseason will likely not work to well either IMO. What is the solution?

start the re-build almost immediately...

I really cannot see this squad winning...so many players need to go it isn't funny...

and all those who think that one player or two will make a huge difference they are silly...it is obvious that 80% of this team cannot handle a funk...so if they were to stay around...and eneter another funk...the same thing will happen...

the team needs a fresh start...and so do many of the players...