What if Heatley hadn't said no to the Oilers?

wprager wrote:Guys, can I ask a stupid question? Why are we discussing this like it was a choice? Murray did not have a choice. His had was forced, and he made the best trade he could by insisting on Michalek. If Murray *had* a choice, he would have taken Penner/Smid/Cogliano.

Who is, exactly?

wprager wrote:Penner is doing well now, but it's a little early to tell. Let's see where all of the players are in 3 years' time, when we'll still have 2 more years left on Michalek's $4.3M.

Not to mention Michalek is 24 to Penner's 27.

asq2 wrote:

wprager wrote:Guys, can I ask a stupid question? Why are we discussing this like it was a choice? Murray did not have a choice. His had was forced, and he made the best trade he could by insisting on Michalek. If Murray *had* a choice, he would have taken Penner/Smid/Cogliano.

Who is, exactly?

Well, at the risk of singling him out, Jordo said:

I would say that given Cheechoo's past and potential, as well as our
drafting history- that we made the right call all around on the deal.

Thing is, it wasn't our (Murray's) call to make.

Tell me no one on here would prefer the Oilers package over Michalek and a 2nd (and Cheechoo)? Michalek is such a special player...we're so lucky.

I love Michalek and Cheechoo hasn't been awful (I'm not panicking yet), but Cogliano is a great young player and Penner is finally earning that contract. Smid is a nice player as well, and I wouldn't consider him a throwin by any means. Having said all this, I still prefer what we got from SJ (especially if that pick turns into gold) but I don't believe it's a slam dunk.

It's all relative imo. Ask me when Michalek is mid-slump and Cheechoo doesn't produce like most here thought he could and I may have another answer. It looks so damn good now because Michalek is playing extremely well atm.

Edmonton ALWAYS have very good October/Novembers and usually crash around December (with 1/2 injuries). I always prefer to analyze players when they struggle when the team plays well, or when they shine when the team sucks. So I'll wait for an Edmonton collapse to see how the players react.

What I can see right now is MIchalek is pretty consistently good, even when some players have brain farts for a few minutes (like the Pens game)

SpezDispenser wrote:Tell me no one on here would prefer the Oilers package over Michalek and a 2nd (and Cheechoo)? Michalek is such a special player...we're so lucky.

I'm very happy with Michalek. So far, even with our PP being so pathetic, he has been keeping up with Heatley in scoring. Well, almost. But considering he has played 3 fewer games and is only 2 goals behind, with a PP that sucks, that's "keeping up" in my books. Plus he's definitely made our PK stronger, allowing Alfie to be something like the 5th Sen forward in terms of PK ice time. That will definitely help down the stretch and (hopefully) into the post-season.

Spezza is a better player now than he was with Heatley. That much we pretty much expected. Not sure if playing with Michalek has made him better as well. Michalek busts his a$$ all the time on the ice, so it's got to be rubbing off. Would he get the same effect from Penner? Somehow I seriously doubt it.

I think it's very easy to say that Michalek is better on this team than Penner would have been. Plus he's younger and signed for a longer term at a lower cap hit. No brainer there.

It gets a lot tougher, though, when you start looking at Cogliano and Smid. Personally, I don't think there's room here for Cogliano. We have too many small players as it is (Shannon, Campoli, Karlsson) and lots of small forward prospects. We also have a wealth of stud D prospects. Would Smid be an upgrade over Karlsson or Cowen next year, or Wiercioch in 2-3 years? Or would he become another Meszaros for us? Impossible to tell, but we clearly don't need help on D starting next year. This year, sure, but would Smid have been an upgrade over Picard or Campoli? His cap hit says no.

So, sure, the Oilers deal would have brought us a better return. but we got the best player of the ones mentioned in Michalek; Cogliano would have made Binghamton a better team but he'd be an RFA at the end of this season; Smid is a one-way contract that we would have a hard time fitting into our roster.

And, no, I'm not forgetting about the 2nd, but frankly, an upgrade from a mid-round 5th to what is probably going to be a very late-2nd doesn't get me terribly excited. Not yet, anyway.

Don't be so quick to frown at a 2nd rounder.

The last three 2nd rounders we've picked up have been Robin Lehner, Patrick Weircioch, and Jakob Silfverberg

Nothing to sneeze at.

I'm not so much frowning at the 2nd rounder as I am being realistic -- we didn't get this 2nd rounder for free, it cost as a mid-5th round pick; it's probably going to be closer to a 3rd rounder than a 2nd rounder; we aren't going to pull a 1st round-calibre player in the 2nd round every year.

I always knew Penner way the key to that deal and people would say he's fat. He had an off-year, but would have got a lot of goals here in Ottawa. That being said, I love Michalek and wouldn't give him up for Penner and Cogliano.

wprager wrote:I'm not so much frowning at the 2nd rounder as I am being realistic -- we didn't get this 2nd rounder for free, it cost as a mid-5th round pick; it's probably going to be closer to a 3rd rounder than a 2nd rounder; we aren't going to pull a 1st round-calibre player in the 2nd round every year.

Well now that's a bad attitude.

I see I got singled out in my argument against the Edmonton trade. I wasn't trying to act like Murray had a choice, I was simply saying that at the end of the day, I'm happy the Edmonton deal didn't go through, because the SJ one is better IMO.

Guys, Penner sucks. He does. He would not fit into our team like Michalek has. Yes, he has had a hot start. But so has Michalek, and the difference between the two is that MM will probably keep the pace, and Penner will most likely fall off... then go into a deep depression of Taco Bell value combos and extra large pizzas.
Michalek is cheaper, younger, and signed for a longer term.

Cogs, as someone said before, doesn't fit into our needs. I really like him as a player, and he was the piece I was most excited about... but given what we've seen this year, I can't really see him fitting in. Maybe if we dished out Kelly, he could have taken over... but IMO, he's the same player as Peter Regin.

Smid, well you never know with young defensemen, but I'm not too worried about missing on this guy knowing that we have a pretty strong future in D.


Murray's objective was to bolster the offense, and in my personal opinion- Michalek and Cheechoo are better than Penner and Cogliano. I understand he didn't have a choice, but Thanks Dany for being the bunghole you are and denying the Edmonton deal, because a better one came along.

hemlock wrote:I love Michalek and Cheechoo hasn't been awful (I'm not panicking yet), but Cogliano is a great young player and Penner is finally earning that contract. Smid is a nice player as well, and I wouldn't consider him a throwin by any means. Having said all this, I still prefer what we got from SJ (especially if that pick turns into gold) but I don't believe it's a slam dunk.

It's all relative imo. Ask me when Michalek is mid-slump and Cheechoo doesn't produce like most here thought he could and I may have another answer. It looks so damn good now because Michalek is playing extremely well atm.

The thing about Michalek that makes him special to me is, no matter when and if he hits a slump, you can still rely on his speed and smarts to contribute in some way. Whether it's PK, PP, 5 on 5 or even just taking some extra weight off of Alfie on the PK, this guy will bring it every night. Will he score 6 goals in every 9 games? No, but he'll help in ways that we could only dream about before.

I like Cogliano a lot, but he's not 6'2, 225 and he doesn't have the 'growing pains' experience that Michalek does. Fat Penner is an interesting piece though, he could definitely have a nice year and Smid is looking better and better. Still...Michalek = win.

The 2nd rounder shouldn't be ignored either. We have Forsberg, Dorion etc. for a reason - they're awesome at finding talent. I love the SJ deal and I can fully understand Wilson's heartbreak in dealing Michalek (I wouldn't have personally).

Yeah, sorry about that. Didn't want to single you out but going back that was the only comment I could find that supported my opinion. Sorry.

As for my "bad attitude" I'm just being realistic. Getting a gem in the 5th round is not much more unrealistic than the 5th. Seems to me that we got a pretty decent player in the 5th round a few years back. Won the Calder. Leads the team in all offensive categories.

Jordo wrote:

wprager wrote:I'm not so much frowning at the 2nd rounder as I am being realistic -- we didn't get this 2nd rounder for free, it cost as a mid-5th round pick; it's probably going to be closer to a 3rd rounder than a 2nd rounder; we aren't going to pull a 1st round-calibre player in the 2nd round every year.

Well now that's a bad attitude.

I see I got singled out in my argument against the Edmonton trade. I wasn't trying to act like Murray had a choice, I was simply saying that at the end of the day, I'm happy the Edmonton deal didn't go through, because the SJ one is better IMO.

Guys, Penner sucks. He does. He would not fit into our team like Michalek has. Yes, he has had a hot start. But so has Michalek, and the difference between the two is that MM will probably keep the pace, and Penner will most likely fall off... then go into a deep depression of Taco Bell value combos and extra large pizzas.
Michalek is cheaper, younger, and signed for a longer term.

Cogs, as someone said before, doesn't fit into our needs. I really like him as a player, and he was the piece I was most excited about... but given what we've seen this year, I can't really see him fitting in. Maybe if we dished out Kelly, he could have taken over... but IMO, he's the same player as Peter Regin.

Smid, well you never know with young defensemen, but I'm not too worried about missing on this guy knowing that we have a pretty strong future in D.


Murray's objective was to bolster the offense, and in my personal opinion- Michalek and Cheechoo are better than Penner and Cogliano. I understand he didn't have a choice, but Thanks Dany for being the bunghole you are and denying the Edmonton deal, because a better one came along.

Michalek was close to getting a third shortie that game, and another one the game after that (or two games after). Also the 6 goals have come in the last 5 games. I'm not sure when he was paired with Spezza, but it hasn't been all 9 games. It's been either 5 or 6 games.

So the point is, he could have had more than just the 6 goals with just a bit more luck, and he's been way more productive with Spezza than 6 goals in 9 games.