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NEELY wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:

NEELY wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:

Michallica wrote:Believe what you want man, ppl were ecstatic in march when we got cory conacher all based on 'potential' and 'upswing' etc etc.  Think it's time we stopped with the potential crap and got ourselves a proven commodity, and yes that means trading roster players that aren't 'scrap'

I agree.  One more proven commodity like Fleishmann or even Hemsky who I don't like, someone who has played at a high level in the NHL for long enough that it's not a fluke.

Take one Clarke MacArthur.  When we signed him people were sort of shrugging their shoulders, now we could use another 5 of him.

Debatable if Flash is even a better player than Matthias let along the fact he makes a 1/3 of the salary and has the potential to be a 25 goal guy.  Also brings some character along with him.

Love how people are saying Hemsky and Flash are "proven"... yah, might be top 6 players right now but it's a band-aid solution at best.  Matthias could be a long term fix at next to no cost in terms of players going the other way and real money.

lol, no.  There's zero debate on who the better player is between Fleishmann and Matthias.

Honestly, after you saying that I feel pretty good about my analysis, lol.  Remember that good old Stempniak for Steen and Coliacavo trade? Honestly dude, when you say these things usually the opposite becomes pretty apparent pretty quickly.  That's not a knock on you it's actually what happens.

Haha, that happens to support my claims as much as it doesn't. Come on...you act as if you're God's gift to hockey and knowledge sometimes, it's cute.

Who's the better player for the Sens right now? The guy who leads the Panthers in scoring and is actually only a -1, which is a miracle to be honest, not the guy with 4 points who's yet another tweener who might one day be good enough to perhaps play in the Sens top 6. Jesus, we have a barn full of those guys: Pageau, Hoffman, Da Costa, Lazar, Prince, Robinson, Zibanejad, Conacher. They all 'could' be the next thing, but they're not a true top six player yet - with experience - and that's what we need.

NEELY wrote:

Ev wrote:

NEELY wrote:Just so we are clear... Matthias scores 14 last year while being a way better player without the puck, Flash scores 12 and struggles on the defensive side of things...?  So no debate there eh? lol

Matthias scored 14 once, in 48 games.

Fleischmann has scpred 27, 23, 19, 12 in 48.

Looks like a downward trend to me... and he's hitting 30.  Matthias is (was) trending upward until this year and is 25 years old.  Matthias scored more goals than Flash last year... so add in all the other facets of their game and this isn't debatable? lol.  Jesus.  The short term thinking on this site sometimes is mind boggling.

Bahahahaha. Are you serious? Fleishmann is 27 years old and Matthias is 25. Massive age difference, look out!!  

I'd love to be a fly on the wall of the coaching staff right now. Do you sit Cowen in the press box and have him make notes and look at the game from afar? Do you continue to play him, but shelter his minutes a bit and lower them to 11-14 minutes if possible? He shouldn't be playing in the top 4 right now, it's absolutely killing us. Put Borowiecki there and leave him there IMO, but again, who knows what they're trying to do with Cowen. This is his sophomore slump really, he's played only slightly more than a full season + missed a year developing, so I think that's probably what this is.

Next thing is to figure out who can contribute the most on Spezza's 2nd line. Is it Conacher? I have to say, he's lost out there some of the time, particularly in the defensive zone. He works hard, but when he doesn't cover his man in the defensive zone, it's a free shot - and usually a good one - and his offense doesn't compensate for that.

Is it Greening? I doubt it at this point. I think Greening's a guy who will play on the 3rd line from here on out and hopefully find some consistency in his offensive game so he can be a 15 goal guy in this league.

Lots of things to work out right now.

SpezDispenser wrote:

NEELY wrote:

Ev wrote:

NEELY wrote:Just so we are clear... Matthias scores 14 last year while being a way better player without the puck, Flash scores 12 and struggles on the defensive side of things...?  So no debate there eh? lol

Matthias scored 14 once, in 48 games.

Fleischmann has scpred 27, 23, 19, 12 in 48.

Looks like a downward trend to me... and he's hitting 30.  Matthias is (was) trending upward until this year and is 25 years old.  Matthias scored more goals than Flash last year... so add in all the other facets of their game and this isn't debatable? lol.  Jesus.  The short term thinking on this site sometimes is mind boggling.

Bahahahaha.  Are you serious?  Fleishmann is 27 years old and Matthias is 25.  Massive age difference, look out!!   

Ugh he was born in 84 dude. So before you want to try and keep up with this convo make sure you are posting something that's accurate. 4 years is a massive age difference when someone is about to hit 30.

NEELY wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:

NEELY wrote:

Ev wrote:

NEELY wrote:Just so we are clear... Matthias scores 14 last year while being a way better player without the puck, Flash scores 12 and struggles on the defensive side of things...?  So no debate there eh? lol

Matthias scored 14 once, in 48 games.

Fleischmann has scpred 27, 23, 19, 12 in 48.

Looks like a downward trend to me... and he's hitting 30.  Matthias is (was) trending upward until this year and is 25 years old.  Matthias scored more goals than Flash last year... so add in all the other facets of their game and this isn't debatable? lol.  Jesus.  The short term thinking on this site sometimes is mind boggling.

Bahahahaha.  Are you serious?  Fleishmann is 27 years old and Matthias is 25.  Massive age difference, look out!!   

Ugh he was born in 84 dude.  So before you want to try and keep up with this convo make sure you are posting something that's accurate. 4 years is a massive age difference when someone is about to hit 30.

I see that...now. I was looking at Versteeg. lol, keep up with the conversation. It's not hard when it's all Spezza all the time.

So...about this upward trend on Matthias. 4 points this year to Fleishmann's 12. Is that considered an upward trend?

You want to talk about their current roles? Why all the sudden when a young player is starting to find his stride and his game keeps improving with his production that he just all the sudden hits a wall? Might be the Dung show that is the Florida Panthers.

Fact of the matter is Matthias was on course until this season to be a very solid NHL player and he will be where ever he is traded to. His all around game is solid, clearly capable of scoring 20 plus goals in the NHL, big, very good skater, heady player.

Please explain to me how Flash is so much better than Matthias that it's not even debatable... would love to hear it. Is Flash more physical? Nope. Better defensively? Nope. More offense? Little bit yah but Matthias also has the potential to be better there too if not for the fact they want him to be a shut down center and that's it... with no linemates that resemble NHL players.

Who else was it that needed out after being pigeon holed in a Southern market where people (including yourself) flipped out and said he was no good when he was traded? Just curios.

As for the Spezza comment there, yah, I think what's wrong with the team is based off of Spezza being the captain and center piece of the team. That's why I talk about it so much because it's a huge issue.

MacLean has a dilemma, bench guys or try and develop them.
No idea why guys like Cowen and Greening haven't been sat, I imagine they're doing and saying the right things in practice.

NEELY wrote:You want to talk about their current roles?  Why all the sudden when a young player is starting to find his stride and his game keeps improving with his production that he just all the sudden hits a wall?  Might be the Dung show that is the Florida Panthers.  

Fact of the matter is Matthias was on course until this season to be a very solid NHL player and he will be where ever he is traded to.  His all around game is solid, clearly capable of scoring 20 plus goals in the NHL, big, very good skater, heady player.

Please explain to me how Flash is so much better than Matthias that it's not even debatable... would love to hear it.  Is Flash more physical?  Nope.  Better defensively?  Nope.  More offense?  Little bit yah but Matthias also has the potential to be better there too if not for the fact they want him to be a shut down center and that's it... with no linemates that resemble NHL players.

Who else was it that needed out after being pigeon holed in a Southern market where people (including yourself) flipped out and said he was no good when he was traded?  Just curios.

By your own admission 4 years is a long time in the hockey world.  Turris was 22 at the time, Matthias is 25.  Would I be mad if we acquired Matthias?  No, go for it.  It's worth a try to get players in here that have a chance to better us.  Might as well try him with Smith on the third line.  Is he the answer to what ails us?  Not IMO.  We need a guy who has scored goals in the NHL and knows his role on a team.  Fleish is a player who can create plays offensively and can finish when the opportunity arises.  I don't want another guy with potential right now, we have a lot of guys with potential, I want someone who can put the puck in the net so we have some semblance of a second line.

There was a period there where Fleish's production diminished, I see it, you see, everyone can see, but it has a lot to do with a horrific scare he got dealing with a blood clot on his lung and one in his leg too.  The first one, he took thinners and made it back quickly, the second one on his lung, he missed ~60 games:


"On Thursday, the Colorado Avalanche realized that Tomas Fleischmann has a blood clot in his lung, which will prematurely conclude his season. The left winger suffered from a shortness of breath, and the club's physician states that Fleischmann will be on blood thinners for a number of months and will not be allowed to play hockey.  

It is an awful turn of events for a player who was earning praise after being acquired from the Washington Capitals in November. Fleischmann compiled 21 points in 22 games, developing incredible chemistry with Matt Duchene on the top line and becoming a primary offensive contributor.  

The Czech native also contracted a blood clot in his leg last year, causing him to miss the opening 10 games of the campaign. Obviously, this is more serious than the everyday injuries that are frequently seen and we can only hope Fleischmann recovers as quickly as possible."

http://www.sbnation.com/nhl/2011/1/20/1947401/tomas-fleischmann-blood-clot-out-for-season-avalanche-nhl

NEELY wrote:As for the Spezza comment there, yah, I think what's wrong with the team is based off of Spezza being the captain and center piece of the team.  That's why I talk about it so much because it's a huge issue.

The issue I have with that is: if guys aren't stepping up and 'contributing' to the leadership core on this team, then we have so many deep rooted issues it's not even funny. One guy...simply cannot change the effort level of a team. I don't buy it.

SpezDispenser wrote:

NEELY wrote:You want to talk about their current roles?  Why all the sudden when a young player is starting to find his stride and his game keeps improving with his production that he just all the sudden hits a wall?  Might be the Dung show that is the Florida Panthers.  

Fact of the matter is Matthias was on course until this season to be a very solid NHL player and he will be where ever he is traded to.  His all around game is solid, clearly capable of scoring 20 plus goals in the NHL, big, very good skater, heady player.

Please explain to me how Flash is so much better than Matthias that it's not even debatable... would love to hear it.  Is Flash more physical?  Nope.  Better defensively?  Nope.  More offense?  Little bit yah but Matthias also has the potential to be better there too if not for the fact they want him to be a shut down center and that's it... with no linemates that resemble NHL players.

Who else was it that needed out after being pigeon holed in a Southern market where people (including yourself) flipped out and said he was no good when he was traded?  Just curios.

By your own admission 4 years is a long time in the hockey world.  Turris was 22 at the time, Matthias is 25.  Would I be mad if we acquired Matthias?  No, go for it.  It's worth a try to get players in here that have a chance to better us.  Might as well try him with Smith on the third line.  Is he the answer to what ails us?  Not IMO.  We need a guy who has scored goals in the NHL and knows his role on a team.  Fleish is a player who can create plays offensively and can finish when the opportunity arises.  I don't want another guy with potential right now, we have a lot of guys with potential, I want someone who can put the puck in the net so we have some semblance of a second line.

There was a period there where Fleish's production diminished, I see it, you see, everyone can see, but it has a lot to do with a horrific scare he got dealing with a blood clot on his lung and one in his leg too.  The first one, he took thinners and made it back quickly, the second one on his lung, he missed ~60 games:


"On Thursday, the Colorado Avalanche realized that Tomas Fleischmann has a blood clot in his lung, which will prematurely conclude his season. The left winger suffered from a shortness of breath, and the club's physician states that Fleischmann will be on blood thinners for a number of months and will not be allowed to play hockey.  

It is an awful turn of events for a player who was earning praise after being acquired from the Washington Capitals in November. Fleischmann compiled 21 points in 22 games, developing incredible chemistry with Matt Duchene on the top line and becoming a primary offensive contributor.  

The Czech native also contracted a blood clot in his leg last year, causing him to miss the opening 10 games of the campaign. Obviously, this is more serious than the everyday injuries that are frequently seen and we can only hope Fleischmann recovers as quickly as possible."

http://www.sbnation.com/nhl/2011/1/20/1947401/tomas-fleischmann-blood-clot-out-for-season-avalanche-nhl

Put it this way, I would be weary of any player putting up decent #'s on an awful team because there is no one to go to besides a select few. A guy who is a particular type of player struggling on an awful team isn't an awful player. Matthias is a power forward and this is the exact age (around it) that they break out. Last year he was on the verge of it then what happened? Just decided he wasn't going to play hard or work? He's played hard but things are not working out for him right now. Simple is that.

I would say Matthias is a better player than Fleishmann at this point especially on a decent team.

SpezDispenser wrote:

NEELY wrote:As for the Spezza comment there, yah, I think what's wrong with the team is based off of Spezza being the captain and center piece of the team.  That's why I talk about it so much because it's a huge issue.

The issue I have with that is: if guys aren't stepping up and 'contributing' to the leadership core on this team, then we have so many deep rooted issues it's not even funny.  One guy...simply cannot change the effort level of a team.  I don't buy it.

That's so wrong it isn't funny. There are so many examples of players dragging down teams because of the commitment to that player from the organization.

NEELY wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:

NEELY wrote:As for the Spezza comment there, yah, I think what's wrong with the team is based off of Spezza being the captain and center piece of the team.  That's why I talk about it so much because it's a huge issue.

The issue I have with that is: if guys aren't stepping up and 'contributing' to the leadership core on this team, then we have so many deep rooted issues it's not even funny.  One guy...simply cannot change the effort level of a team.  I don't buy it.

That's so wrong it isn't funny.  There are so many examples of players dragging down teams because of the commitment to that player from the organization.

Then let a new leadership core rise up. Either players on this team who aren't part of the actual leadership core step up, or they go down with the ship - if it's indeed sinking. Why would they stand by and watch in this day and age?

Because you have to let it play out.

Ok, while I was letting it play out, I'd be playing my Donkey off. How does that situation make the team play like they're pee wee players in the defensive zone?