What does it take to get Nash?

You said if a player isn't established, they have no reason to stay. You did say that. Since you said that established players choose to stay, it means unestablished players choose to leave. Heatley chose to stay in Ottawa when he resigned with them. He was established here. He left.

So it seems you are setting me up for failure here, because you are demanding a list of players who signed in Canada, but they have to be a) a star, and b) not overpaid.

Riprock wrote:No, the stablished argument makes no sense. Established players move from one American city to another, and apparently that is ok. But apparently it is not ok if you move from an established American city to a Canadian one. Oh yeah, except if you are a Dan Hamhuis.

Turris can do the exact same thing he pulled with Phoenix with Ottawa. Because, he is not established here. He's what, 22?

If that happens, we cannot judge him, because if he wants to play in the USA (or I guess we can add Vancouver to this list) it is ok, because we shouldn't deny someone a chance to play somewhere warm where the save millions, or to play where they were born.

But if he stays, it's apparently either because he has no choice or he is established.

Deos this seriously make sense to you?

You can't deal with absolus like this, it's total BS.

Who said we couldn't judge? I go based on history and what I know. I know for a fact taxes are lower in the US. I know for a fact guys hate the Canadian media. I know for a fact Canadian teams (especially small ones) have a hard time getting players from outside their organziation. I know for a fact the weather is nicer in the US.

I also know for a fact players have families and lives. They do listen to their wives and do what's best for their kids.

Just give me ONE example of a big name UFA coming to either Ottawa, Calgary, Winnipeg, or Edmonton.

The only player I can ever think of that has star quality that said he would waive to come to Ottawa was Dan Boyle... guess where he is from?

NEELY wrote:
The only player I can ever think of that has star quality that said he would waive to come to Ottawa was Dan Boyle... guess where he is from?

Marc Savard was rumored to as well, same story.

Chris Pronger chose to sign an contract with Edmonton after being traded as a pending UFA by St. Louis, where he spent 9 seasons. Regardless of what happened after, he chose to sign in Edmonton. He may not have chose to be traded to Edmonton, but chose to re-sign, then subsequently chose to be traded.

I have some facts for you: Minnesota is very similar to Ottawa in climate. So I guess the only difference is taxes.

(some) people dislike (some) Canadian media personnel.

Ok, so you are saying you have a right to judge a player for leaving Ottawa? Even after you argue that it would be foolish for them to give up millions to stay, and not enjoy year round warm weather? Ok, then I suppose I am equally qualified to judge a player for not coming to Ottawa, right?

I guess you don't consider Hasek or Gonchar star quality signings.

Riprock wrote:You said if a player isn't established, they have no reason to stay. You did say that. Since you said that established players choose to stay, it means unestablished players choose to leave. Heatley chose to stay in Ottawa when he resigned with them. He was established here. He left.

So it seems you are setting me up for failure here, because you are demanding a list of players who signed in Canada, but they have to be a) a star, and b) not overpaid.

LOL, WOW, again, putting words into someones mouth when you haven't made one valid point as of yet.

Heatley didn't want to be in Ottawa. Why didn't his list include Calgary? Edmonton? Montreal? Toronto? Vancouver?

So again, show me an example of a player wanting to play in Canada so damn badly he demanded a trade here or signed as a UFA. Ryan Smyth (home town) Hamhuis (home town) Savard (home town), Boyle (home town)... go ahead, still waiting. Show me what star chose to come to Canada on their own terms there big guy.

NEELY wrote:

Riprock wrote:You said if a player isn't established, they have no reason to stay. You did say that. Since you said that established players choose to stay, it means unestablished players choose to leave. Heatley chose to stay in Ottawa when he resigned with them. He was established here. He left.

So it seems you are setting me up for failure here, because you are demanding a list of players who signed in Canada, but they have to be a) a star, and b) not overpaid.

LOL, WOW, again, putting words into someones mouth when you haven't made one valid point as of yet.

Heatley didn't want to be in Ottawa. Why didn't his list include Calgary? Edmonton? Montreal? Toronto? Vancouver?

So again, show me an example of a player wanting to play in Canada so damn badly he demanded a trade here or signed as a UFA. Ryan Smyth (home town) Hamhuis (home town) Savard (home town), Boyle (home town)... go ahead, still waiting. Show me what star chose to come to Canada on their own terms there big guy.

l'Artiste.

Riprock wrote:Chris Pronger chose to sign an contract with Edmonton after being traded as a pending UFA by St. Louis, where he spent 9 seasons. Regardless of what happened after, he chose to sign in Edmonton. He may not have chose to be traded to Edmonton, but chose to re-sign, then subsequently chose to be traded.

I have some facts for you: Minnesota is very similar to Ottawa in climate. So I guess the only difference is taxes.

(some) people dislike (some) Canadian media personnel.

Ok, so you are saying you have a right to judge a player for leaving Ottawa? Even after you argue that it would be foolish for them to give up millions to stay, and not enjoy year round warm weather? Ok, then I suppose I am equally qualified to judge a player for not coming to Ottawa, right?

I guess you don't consider Hasek or Gonchar star quality signings.

LOL, Pronger? The guy that wanted no part of Canada?

Sens were the only team willing to offer Gonchar 3 years. That's what he wanted which is an extra 5.5 mil and sure extra year in the NHL. Sens were the only team willing to do it.

Hasek... I'll give you Hasek even though the details surrounding that are sketchy at best and it was a total disaster... much like Pronger.

Riprock wrote:Chris Pronger chose to sign an contract with Edmonton after being traded as a pending UFA by St. Louis, where he spent 9 seasons. Regardless of what happened after, he chose to sign in Edmonton. He may not have chose to be traded to Edmonton, but chose to re-sign, then subsequently chose to be traded.

I have some facts for you: Minnesota is very similar to Ottawa in climate. So I guess the only difference is taxes.

(some) people dislike (some) Canadian media personnel.

Ok, so you are saying you have a right to judge a player for leaving Ottawa? Even after you argue that it would be foolish for them to give up millions to stay, and not enjoy year round warm weather? Ok, then I suppose I am equally qualified to judge a player for not coming to Ottawa, right?

I guess you don't consider Hasek or Gonchar star quality signings.

Wtf? lol. When did I ever say anyone has a right to judge anyone? Just stop dude. Just stop. That sound you hear is your hand grasping at straw.

Ok, so now you're argument is changing a bit:

Just to make sure I have this correct, your argument is:

i) it's justifiable for a player to choose to leave a Canadian city if and only if they are not established to the team in any way (they have to have roots, i.e. have been born and/or raised there; or been there long enough to start a family).

ii) No players choose to come to a Canadian city unless they were born/and or raised in the area, or they are offered more money than market value deems they are worth.

iii) Players stand to benefit more from playing in the USA, since they would save "millions of dollars", not have to deal with the pressures of playing in a Canadian market, dealing with critical media, and get to enjoy warm weather year round.

iv) thus, it would be foolish to play in Canada under any other circumstances other than what was previously mentioned. (see ii).

v) therefore any player that doesn't fall under ii) that chose to stay in Canada would be foolish to do so because of iii). Consequently, any player that does not fall under ii) would be foolish not to leave Canada.

Did I leave anything out?

NEELY wrote:

Riprock wrote:No, the stablished argument makes no sense. Established players move from one American city to another, and apparently that is ok. But apparently it is not ok if you move from an established American city to a Canadian one. Oh yeah, except if you are a Dan Hamhuis.

Turris can do the exact same thing he pulled with Phoenix with Ottawa. Because, he is not established here. He's what, 22?

If that happens, we cannot judge him, because if he wants to play in the USA (or I guess we can add Vancouver to this list) it is ok, because we shouldn't deny someone a chance to play somewhere warm where the save millions, or to play where they were born.

But if he stays, it's apparently either because he has no choice or he is established.

Deos this seriously make sense to you?

You can't deal with absolus like this, it's total BS.

Who said we couldn't judge? I go based on history and what I know. I know for a fact taxes are lower in the US. I know for a fact guys hate the Canadian media. I know for a fact Canadian teams (especially small ones) have a hard time getting players from outside their organziation. I know for a fact the weather is nicer in the US.

I also know for a fact players have families and lives. They do listen to their wives and do what's best for their kids.

Just give me ONE example of a big name UFA coming to either Ottawa, Calgary, Winnipeg, or Edmonton.

The only player I can ever think of that has star quality that said he would waive to come to Ottawa was Dan Boyle... guess where he is from?

NEELY wrote:

Riprock wrote:Chris Pronger chose to sign an contract with Edmonton after being traded as a pending UFA by St. Louis, where he spent 9 seasons. Regardless of what happened after, he chose to sign in Edmonton. He may not have chose to be traded to Edmonton, but chose to re-sign, then subsequently chose to be traded.

I have some facts for you: Minnesota is very similar to Ottawa in climate. So I guess the only difference is taxes.

(some) people dislike (some) Canadian media personnel.

Ok, so you are saying you have a right to judge a player for leaving Ottawa? Even after you argue that it would be foolish for them to give up millions to stay, and not enjoy year round warm weather? Ok, then I suppose I am equally qualified to judge a player for not coming to Ottawa, right?

I guess you don't consider Hasek or Gonchar star quality signings.

Wtf? lol. When did I ever say anyone has a right to judge anyone? Just stop dude. Just stop. That sound you hear is your hand grasping at straw.

I apologize if that's not what you mean't, but did you not say "Who said we couldn't judge?" in response to me saying "If that happens, we cannot judge him"?

I don't believe I am grasping at anything. I am trying to organize your argument into a structured argument, just so we are all aware of just what it i exactly are the conditions of your argument.

Players will come to Canada if they are overpaid. Yes. Big reason why Montreal is a total Dung show.

Players will come back to their home town. Yes.

Players will resign in the cities they have played for a while and are established. Yes.

About it.

NEELY wrote:

Riprock wrote:You said if a player isn't established, they have no reason to stay. You did say that. Since you said that established players choose to stay, it means unestablished players choose to leave. Heatley chose to stay in Ottawa when he resigned with them. He was established here. He left.

So it seems you are setting me up for failure here, because you are demanding a list of players who signed in Canada, but they have to be a) a star, and b) not overpaid.

LOL, WOW, again, putting words into someones mouth when you haven't made one valid point as of yet.

I apologize if you feel that's what I am doing, however, logically that is the implication of the negation of your argument, so it logically entails the opposite of what you are arguing. Thus, if a is acceptable, than not a is also acceptable.

Heatley didn't want to be in Ottawa. Why didn't his list include Calgary? Edmonton? Montreal? Toronto? Vancouver?

Nobody is disagreeing that at the time, yes he wanted to leave. However, that doesn't contradict the fact that he re-signed twice as a member of the Senators (as an RFA when he was acquired, and again as a UFA 3 years later
), spending a total of 4 seasons as a Senator (long enough to be considered "established"??? Also wore an "A", indicating he was established with the team as well as the community).

So again, show me an example of a player wanting to play in Canada so damn badly he demanded a trade here or signed as a UFA. Ryan Smyth (home town) Hamhuis (home town) Savard (home town), Boyle (home town)... go ahead, still waiting. Show me what star chose to come to Canada on their own terms there big guy.

Ok, now that we've got this cleared, it appears I cannot possibly win this, since the terms of your conditions simply cannot be met. Since I must find a player that is a) not from the area, b) not overpaid, and c) considered a star, that has d) willingly chosen to i) sign as a UFA; or ii) accept a trade to a Canadian city.

NEELY wrote:

Riprock wrote:Chris Pronger chose to sign an contract with Edmonton after being traded as a pending UFA by St. Louis, where he spent 9 seasons. Regardless of what happened after, he chose to sign in Edmonton. He may not have chose to be traded to Edmonton, but chose to re-sign, then subsequently chose to be traded.

I have some facts for you: Minnesota is very similar to Ottawa in climate. So I guess the only difference is taxes.

(some) people dislike (some) Canadian media personnel.

Ok, so you are saying you have a right to judge a player for leaving Ottawa? Even after you argue that it would be foolish for them to give up millions to stay, and not enjoy year round warm weather? Ok, then I suppose I am equally qualified to judge a player for not coming to Ottawa, right?

I guess you don't consider Hasek or Gonchar star quality signings.

LOL, Pronger? The guy that wanted no part of Canada?

Might be the case had he not signed there in the first place.

Sens were the only team willing to offer Gonchar 3 years. That's what he wanted which is an extra 5.5 mil and sure extra year in the NHL. Sens were the only team willing to do it.

Again, I cannot win since this does not meet all of the criteria you have established as necessary conditions.

I said big name players don't want to be in Canada, stars don't... unless of course they have grown up in the city like Iginla, Alfi, Sundin, w/e.

You never see a star player signing in Canada in his prime, ever. You never a star player waive to come to Canada other then their home city.

Players want to play here but not the 7 mil plus players. There isn;t a lot of them but they don't want to be here. Money and endorsments are a huge part of that along with wives.

NEELY wrote:Players will come to Canada if they are overpaid. Yes. Big reason why Montreal is a total Dung show.

Just to make sure, you believe that Gionta ($5M) and Eric Cole ($4.5M) are overpaid? And that they would not have received the same offer from a non-Canadian team?

Players will come back to their home town. Yes.

Ok, good to know.

Players will resign in the cities they have played for a while and are established. Yes.

Ok, cool.

I think what he is saying is that all things being equal, players will choose the USA over Canada. You make more $$ and get taxed less. There are exceptions but generally speaking, players do not want to play here.

This goes for pretty much any profession (ever hear of the brain drain ?)

If by brain drain you mean the USA luring Canada's brightest (doctors, usually) because the work is more rewarding (monetarily) in the USA?

Hard to establish what constitutes "all things considered equals" entails.

Afterall, this is hockey, and rarely if ever is anything equal. What is being proposed sounds a lot like something completely hypothetical.

It would almost have to be a situation in which 30 teams all had:

i) exactly 1:30 odds of winning the cup,
ii) all had exactly the same number of players under contract,
iii) all had the same amount of cap space
iv) all put the exact same, identical offers on the table.

Player X cannot sign with all teams, so there has to be some reasoning as to why he chose A over B through Z, and 1,2 and 3.

Is it location? Sentimentality? Taxes? Coach? GM? Friendship? Or one of many other multiple variables?

Riprock wrote:

NEELY wrote:Players will come to Canada if they are overpaid. Yes. Big reason why Montreal is a total Dung show.

Just to make sure, you believe that Gionta ($5M) and Eric Cole ($4.5M) are overpaid? And that they would not have received the same offer from a non-Canadian team?

Players will come back to their home town. Yes.

Ok, good to know.

Players will resign in the cities they have played for a while and are established. Yes.

Ok, cool.

Gionta is over paid for sure when he signed the deal, same with Cole. The Cole deal looks good now but there wasn't 1 person that thought he was worth that kind of money when he signed, nor the term.

Gionta is still a little over paid. Camilleri was too. Cole was. Montreal is probably the place they have to over pay the most because of their insane taxes.

Hoags wrote:I think what he is saying is that all things being equal, players will choose the USA over Canada. You make more $$ and get taxed less. There are exceptions but generally speaking, players do not want to play here.

This goes for pretty much any profession (ever hear of the brain drain ?)

That's exactly what it is. Stars don't play in Canada unless they were developed within that city. Pretty simple.