General Hockey Talk - Injuries, signings, factoids + other news from around the league

rooneypoo wrote:

Da lil Guy wrote:I don't think we should be too revisionist here - Murray clearly wanted Kadri, and Burke took him. It was plain to see on TV, and I don't think we can say it was all part of some machievellian scheme on Murray's part.

At the time, I recall being very upset with Murray because he allowed himself to get Wing Dang Doodle (can't wait to see what the filter does with that) on national television by his provincial rival.

What you can't fault Murray for, though, is not pressing the issue if he knew he was going to get a good player regardless - and in hindsight, probably the better player.

EDIT: Filter did not disappoint.

I still don't know how people see it like that. BM approached Burke, inquiring about the pick; Burke, blusteringly, responds, we're keeping it and picking Kadri, then walks away. He didn't even listen to any offer (isn't that the first rule of GMing?) and in fact gave away information for free.

BM's silence suggests to me not some nutless submission to the almighty Burke, but rather, 'huh, thanks for the free info, don't need that pick now that I know you aren't picking my guy.'

Cowen was a top 4 or 5 pick before the injury. It's equally as plausible that BM was afraid Burke was going to grab him and not Kadri, who was not on most people's top 10.

Murray wasn't silent. He said he wanted Kadri too.

Da lil Guy wrote:I don't think we should be too revisionist here - Murray clearly wanted Kadri, and Burke took him. It was plain to see on TV, and I don't think we can say it was all part of some machievellian scheme on Murray's part.

At the time, I recall being very upset with Murray because he allowed himself to get Wing Dang Doodle (can't wait to see what the filter does with that) on national television by his provincial rival.

What you can't fault Murray for, though, is not pressing the issue if he knew he was going to get a good player regardless - and in hindsight, probably the better player.

EDIT: Filter did not disappoint.

I don't think that it was "plain to see" that Murray wanted Kadri. When Burke asks if BM wants Kadri, Murray hesitates a bit. He may have wanted to draft NK, but it's also possible that the little pause indicated that wheels were turning in Murray's mind. Regardless, the end result is that we got Cowen, who looks like he'll be a beast. Kadri will probably be a very good second line center, and maybe even a good first liner (though I think it's a safer projection to have him succeeding on the 2nd). We'll never know whether Murray was being honest with Burke at the draft table or not. Who cares, though. We have Cowen. I couldn't be happier with that result.

It seems that there's a bit of a lack of agreement about what happened. Here's the clip:

Big Ev wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Da lil Guy wrote:I don't think we should be too revisionist here - Murray clearly wanted Kadri, and Burke took him. It was plain to see on TV, and I don't think we can say it was all part of some machievellian scheme on Murray's part.

At the time, I recall being very upset with Murray because he allowed himself to get Wing Dang Doodle (can't wait to see what the filter does with that) on national television by his provincial rival.

What you can't fault Murray for, though, is not pressing the issue if he knew he was going to get a good player regardless - and in hindsight, probably the better player.

EDIT: Filter did not disappoint.

I still don't know how people see it like that. BM approached Burke, inquiring about the pick; Burke, blusteringly, responds, we're keeping it and picking Kadri, then walks away. He didn't even listen to any offer (isn't that the first rule of GMing?) and in fact gave away information for free.

BM's silence suggests to me not some nutless submission to the almighty Burke, but rather, 'huh, thanks for the free info, don't need that pick now that I know you aren't picking my guy.'

Cowen was a top 4 or 5 pick before the injury. It's equally as plausible that BM was afraid Burke was going to grab him and not Kadri, who was not on most people's top 10.

Murray wasn't silent. He said he wanted Kadri too.

After Burke said his name. Giving free information away. Not very prudent GMing, if you ask me. Ask the price he's willing to pay & the player he plans to take, then go from there. Not: "Hey, you want Kadri?" "Yeah." "So do we, see you."

Looks ballsy from a distance, but it was stupid, bad GMing. He tipped his hand, not the other way around.

spader wrote:It seems that there's a bit of a lack of agreement about what happened. Here's the clip:

Yeah, there it is. Listen to that. Doesn't hear the offer BM is going to make, then declares he's going to take Kadri. If he were actually doing some smart GMing there, he would have at least listened to the price and got BM to name the player he was going to take.

If he wasn't such a blowhard and listened there, he might have still got Kadri and something extra from BM for allowing him to move up.

Seriously, that isn't GMing genius right there. That's stupid Dung.

But it's not free information really. They were up, so it's not like anyone could use that info to steal his pick. It's just being straight up: We ant Kadri, we're not listening to offers. I don't see what's wrong with that. Why bother listening to offers if you want one guy. Take him now because you don't know if other teams are interested. Dallas was still up right after Toronto.

Big Ev wrote:But it's not free information really. They were up, so it's not like anyone could use that info to steal his pick. It's just being straight up: We ant Kadri, we're not listening to offers. I don't see what's wrong with that. Why bother listening to offers if you want one guy. Take him now because you don't know if other teams are interested. Dallas was still up right after Toronto.

It's free information because, if Burke had kept quiet a second, BM might have made an offer that allowed him (BM) to take Cowen, while Burke still got Kadri and whatever else was offered to move up.

spader wrote:

Big Ev wrote:But it's not free information really. They were up, so it's not like anyone could use that info to steal his pick. It's just being straight up: We ant Kadri, we're not listening to offers. I don't see what's wrong with that. Why bother listening to offers if you want one guy. Take him now because you don't know if other teams are interested. Dallas was still up right after Toronto.

It's free information because, if Burke had kept quiet a second, BM might have made an offer that allowed him (BM) to take Cowen, while Burke still got Kadri and whatever else was offered to move up.

Yeah but you're under the assumption that he didn't want Kadri. I think he did want Kadri, as do many other credible sources. I don't know why people make a big deal out of it. He wanted Kadri.

I thought Murray said first that he wanted Kadri...and then Burke said that's who he was going to take.

My point remains:

Thank goodness Burke took Kadri and didn't give Murray the option. Then thank goodness Dallas took Glennie - which made both the Sens and the Oilers draft very special IMO.

Cowen is a beast, we got really lucky there.

Big Ev wrote:

spader wrote:

Big Ev wrote:But it's not free information really. They were up, so it's not like anyone could use that info to steal his pick. It's just being straight up: We ant Kadri, we're not listening to offers. I don't see what's wrong with that. Why bother listening to offers if you want one guy. Take him now because you don't know if other teams are interested. Dallas was still up right after Toronto.

It's free information because, if Burke had kept quiet a second, BM might have made an offer that allowed him (BM) to take Cowen, while Burke still got Kadri and whatever else was offered to move up.

Yeah but you're under the assumption that he didn't want Kadri. I think he did want Kadri, as do many other credible sources. I don't know why people make a big deal out of it. He wanted Kadri.

True. As I said earlier, I think that Murray's moment of hesitation before answering was telling. I think that, at that moment, he recognized that Burke was after Kadri and he shut any attempt at an offer. If Murray really wanted to take Kadri, I think he would have interjected with an offer of some sort. Either way, we'll never know. It's also quite possible that Murray was being straightforward.

Yeah, we will never know. Moral of the story: We got Cowen. Diddle yeah.

Big Ev wrote:Yeah, we will never know. Moral of the story: We got Cowen. Diddle yeah.

Love that video -- it has captions:

Burke: What do you wanna do?
Murray: We'll flip you ...
Burke (interrupting) Kadri is the guy we're going to take; is that the kid you want?
Murray (slight hesitation): yeah
Burke (no hesitation): Well we're going to take him, so...
Murray: ok
Burke: ok, thanks

That slight hesitation by Murray sounded like wheels turning. Then Burke says "We're going to take him, so ..." almost like he wanted to continue with "... so what do you propose", except Murray very quickly replied "Ok".

It's crystal clear that Murray was going over there, hat in hand, ready to make a deal to move up. Burke assumed he was asking about Kadri but I think his "We're going to take him, so..." was supposed to be a set-up, but Murray just backed right down and said "Ok".

We *know* he was willing to move up, and if we then assume it was for Kadri, then I suppose you could argue that seeing Burke wanted him too, the price would be too high. But it was Murray who initiated the possibility of a trade, it was Burke who brought up Kadri's name and Murray only (after a slight hesitation) said he wanted him, too, and it was then Murray who backed away.

Although I'm not saying it's 100% clear what happened, I'm pretty close to being convinced that Burke mis-read who Murray wanted (could be from FUD coming out of Murray's camp; could have been just a mistake) and because of that he blew a possible deal. Bottom line, Leafs still got who they wanted (the could have taken Cowen; chose not to -- I refuse to believe that Burke did that just to dispel any rumors that he got bluffed) and Sens got who they wanted. Leafs just could have had a bit more.

Burke should have said he wasn't sure if they would take a forward or a defenseman, then let Murray present his offer (for the flip). At least that part was clearly a mistake.

What Burke should have said was, 'what's the pick worth to you'. Why tell someone your plans? F-ing dumb.

Da lil Guy wrote:I don't think we should be too revisionist here - Murray clearly wanted Kadri, and Burke took him. It was plain to see on TV, and I don't think we can say it was all part of some machievellian scheme on Murray's part.

At the time, I recall being very upset with Murray because he allowed himself to get Wing Dang Doodle (can't wait to see what the filter does with that) on national television by his provincial rival.

What you can't fault Murray for, though, is not pressing the issue if he knew he was going to get a good player regardless - and in hindsight, probably the better player.

EDIT: Filter did not disappoint.

Revisionist? Go back to the thread from that draft and you'll see multiple people laughing at how stupid Burke was. No one here, that I remember anyways, thought that BM actually wanted Kadri. The choice was always between MPS and Cowen. If either were there when our picked rolled around, we were taking them. The fact that both were there was just crazy. Dallas made as questionable a choice as TO did.

Agreed with Rooney, I still don't understand how it can be viewed that way. They must have trouble with subtext.

I think it was:

1.Cowen
2.Kadri
3.MPS

That's how I think the list was - but it's all just guessing. Then Dallas stepped up and went slightly off the board - and Murray and Lowe (I think it was) Dung themselves.

Tee hee, I love this. I still can't believe it happened...

Cowen falls to 9. Are you other GMs CRAZYYYYYYY!?*

*After 6 that is, I liked the top 6 picks - although...I can't remember the 4th or 5th off the top of my head. I know OEL was 6 though.

EDIT: I think it was B.Schenn and Kane, so those are solid.