General Hockey Talk - Injuries, signings, factoids + other news from around the league

Da lil Guy wrote:I don't think we should be too revisionist here - Murray clearly wanted Kadri, and Burke took him. It was plain to see on TV, and I don't think we can say it was all part of some machievellian scheme on Murray's part.

At the time, I recall being very upset with Murray because he allowed himself to get Wing Dang Doodle (can't wait to see what the filter does with that) on national television by his provincial rival.

What you can't fault Murray for, though, is not pressing the issue if he knew he was going to get a good player regardless - and in hindsight, probably the better player.

EDIT: Filter did not disappoint.

Revisionist? Go back to the thread from that draft and you'll see multiple people laughing at how stupid Burke was. No one here, that I remember anyways, thought that BM actually wanted Kadri. The choice was always between MPS and Cowen. If either were there when our picked rolled around, we were taking them. The fact that both were there was just crazy. Dallas made as questionable a choice as TO did.

Agreed with Rooney, I still don't understand how it can be viewed that way. They must have trouble with subtext.

I think it was:

1.Cowen
2.Kadri
3.MPS

That's how I think the list was - but it's all just guessing. Then Dallas stepped up and went slightly off the board - and Murray and Lowe (I think it was) Dung themselves.

Tee hee, I love this. I still can't believe it happened...

Cowen falls to 9. Are you other GMs CRAZYYYYYYY!?*

*After 6 that is, I liked the top 6 picks - although...I can't remember the 4th or 5th off the top of my head. I know OEL was 6 though.

EDIT: I think it was B.Schenn and Kane, so those are solid.

Big Ev wrote:

spader wrote:

Big Ev wrote:But it's not free information really. They were up, so it's not like anyone could use that info to steal his pick. It's just being straight up: We ant Kadri, we're not listening to offers. I don't see what's wrong with that. Why bother listening to offers if you want one guy. Take him now because you don't know if other teams are interested. Dallas was still up right after Toronto.

It's free information because, if Burke had kept quiet a second, BM might have made an offer that allowed him (BM) to take Cowen, while Burke still got Kadri and whatever else was offered to move up.

Yeah but you're under the assumption that he didn't want Kadri. I think he did want Kadri, as do many other credible sources. I don't know why people make a big deal out of it. He wanted Kadri.

I'm under the assumption that Burke had no idea what BM was going to offer, or who he intended to pick, because he never bothered to inquire before he announced his own intentions.

What's BM going to say after Burke says "we're going for Kadri; you want him, too"? "No"? No, right -- because it then would be useless for everyone: "No, but we're still willing to pay to move up." Doesn't make sense for him to say anything other than "Yeah [we want Kadri'". BM went there and, without having to make an offer or first name the player he was looking for, learned that Burke was going for Kadri.

Maybe BM wanted Kadri, maybe not. But regardless of who BM wanted, Burke was an idiot for not hearing the offer first and trying to get BM to name his player before he said a word about his own intentions. If it was anyone other than Kadri, then he could have got something from us and still got his man in Kadri.

There's no defence for the stupidity and showmanship on display in that clip. Guy knows he's on camera and puts on a show for the audience -- and potentially to the cost of his team.

Big Ev wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Da lil Guy wrote:I don't think we should be too revisionist here - Murray clearly wanted Kadri, and Burke took him. It was plain to see on TV, and I don't think we can say it was all part of some machievellian scheme on Murray's part.

At the time, I recall being very upset with Murray because he allowed himself to get Wing Dang Doodle (can't wait to see what the filter does with that) on national television by his provincial rival.

What you can't fault Murray for, though, is not pressing the issue if he knew he was going to get a good player regardless - and in hindsight, probably the better player.

EDIT: Filter did not disappoint.

I still don't know how people see it like that. BM approached Burke, inquiring about the pick; Burke, blusteringly, responds, we're keeping it and picking Kadri, then walks away. He didn't even listen to any offer (isn't that the first rule of GMing?) and in fact gave away information for free.

BM's silence suggests to me not some nutless submission to the almighty Burke, but rather, 'huh, thanks for the free info, don't need that pick now that I know you aren't picking my guy.'

Cowen was a top 4 or 5 pick before the injury. It's equally as plausible that BM was afraid Burke was going to grab him and not Kadri, who was not on most people's top 10.

Murray wasn't silent. He said he wanted Kadri too.

He did say he wanted Kadri. He said it there and he also said it after the draft. But he never said he wanted Kadri more than the other players on the board.

Big Ev wrote:

spader wrote:

Big Ev wrote:But it's not free information really. They were up, so it's not like anyone could use that info to steal his pick. It's just being straight up: We ant Kadri, we're not listening to offers. I don't see what's wrong with that. Why bother listening to offers if you want one guy. Take him now because you don't know if other teams are interested. Dallas was still up right after Toronto.

It's free information because, if Burke had kept quiet a second, BM might have made an offer that allowed him (BM) to take Cowen, while Burke still got Kadri and whatever else was offered to move up.

Yeah but you're under the assumption that he didn't want Kadri. I think he did want Kadri, as do many other credible sources. I don't know why people make a big deal out of it. He wanted Kadri.

Toronto sports media. Those are not credible sources in Ottawa v. Toronto cases.

Tim Murray is on record---I repeat, on record---in audio files from the team1200 immediately after the draft saying that we did not want Kadri at that pick. He said it explicitly when asked about the video shown above. He also laughs at the idea that we lost out on the player we wanted when Burke took Kadri and says "we're very happy with the player we got."

It's clear as day that Murray let Burke do what he wanted. There was no attempt to change his mind.

lmao Burke says "Kadri's the kid we're going to take. Is that who you want?" And you actually believe that Murray tells him the truth? lmao that's ridiculous.

If he really wanted Kadri, he'd say something like "we're not quite sure but here's what we're willing to flip you" and at least give himself a chance to get that player. Saying yes is just letting the blowhard screw himself.

I'm amazed people don't see that interaction properly. It's just strange.

SpezDispenser wrote:I think it was:

1.Cowen
2.Kadri
3.MPS

That's how I think the list was - but it's all just guessing. Then Dallas stepped up and went slightly off the board - and Murray and Lowe (I think it was) Dung themselves.

Possibly. I get the sense that we here were higher on MPS than the Sens org was. Given the teams history with Forsberg and his recommendations, we would have taken MPS is Forsberg said we should.

Given Murray's desire to move up and attempt to trade with not only Toronto, but Burke, it's pretty safe to assume they didn't want option 2 or 3.

rooneypoo wrote:
I'm under the assumption that Burke had no idea what BM was going to offer, or who he intended to pick, because he never bothered to inquire before he announced his own intentions.

What's BM going to say after Burke says "we're going for Kadri; you want him, too"? "No"? No, right -- because it then would be useless for everyone: "No, but we're still willing to pay to move up." Doesn't make sense for him to say anything other than "Yeah [we want Kadri'". BM went there and, without having to make an offer or first name the player he was looking for, learned that Burke was going for Kadri.

Maybe BM wanted Kadri, maybe not. But regardless of who BM wanted, Burke was an idiot for not hearing the offer first and trying to get BM to name his player before he said a word about his own intentions. If it was anyone other than Kadri, then he could have got something from us and still got his man in Kadri.

There's no defence for the stupidity and showmanship on display in that clip. Guy knows he's on camera and puts on a show for the audience -- and potentially to the cost of his team.

This makes perfect sense. Don't know how anyone can argue with this.

Exactly. That's the whole point.

Why would you offer up a name. What not say: "I don't give a crap who you want, the pick is what's for sale, not the player. Now make your best offer Bryan - and BTW, it'll cost you to move up with good players on the board. No? Okay then, bye."

Why would you say, "We're taking Kadri." What does that do to help you? Sooooooo dumb. Burke played that hand soooooo badly.

Also, if I'm Burke, I get right out of the way of the stupid camera and talk man to man with Murray. Diddle the showmanship, this is a HUGE part of the next decade for you, you better do everything to make sure you offer the pick up for the correct compensation. I would have tried to talk with Murray for 20 minutes, all the ins and outs. What are you offering, do you want the pick completely, do you want to move up. All scenarios OFF CAMERA. Dolt, Burke acted like a movie star wannabe dolt.

cash wrote:
Possibly. I get the sense that we here were higher on MPS than the Sens org was. Given the teams history with Forsberg and his recommendations, we would have taken MPS is Forsberg said we should.

Given Murray's desire to move up and attempt to trade with not only Toronto, but Burke, it's pretty safe to assume they didn't want option 2 or 3.

For the record, I agree. Murray played Burke there - and not even that well with the hesitation in there before he agreed that he wanted Kadri as well, but it's still all guessing.

As for MPS, you're def. right. There's something there with that kid. He fell from top 5 all the way to 10 for a reason. Perhaps the issues are gone, but as of then, there was a reason why Dallas and Toronto passed, then Ottawa with Forsberg also passed. At the time I would have been cool with either Cowen or MPS. Right now, it looks like Murray, Dorion, Forsberg and co. made the right choice (as usual in their fantastic drafting).

There was alot of noise before the draft that the Sens wanted Kadri. It seems alot of fans desperately want to believe that Murray pulled one over on Big Bad Brian Burke that they are ignoring the actual conversation that took place. Murray got lucky that Burke wanted Kadri.

Oglethorpe wrote:There was alot of noise before the draft that the Sens wanted Kadri. It seems alot of fans desperately want to believe that Murray pulled one over on Big Bad Brian Burke that they are ignoring the actual conversation that took place. Murray got lucky that Burke wanted Kadri.

I know, that's what makes it less of a slam-dunk that Murray Cussed with Burke.

That said, the Sens have always played the draft like a game of poker. Always planted red herrings to make other teams think they want someone they actually don't. They admitted that in one of the behind the scenes documentaries - and I've heard it before from other people.

Oglethorpe wrote:There was alot of noise before the draft that the Sens wanted Kadri. It seems alot of fans desperately want to believe that Murray pulled one over on Big Bad Brian Burke that they are ignoring the actual conversation that took place. Murray got lucky that Burke wanted Kadri.

That noise was Pierre McGuire speculating. That's it. Go back and watch it if you doubt me. I waited for it for weeks. I watched it in its entirety. Read everything leading up to it. Read everything during it.

The first time it was mentioned that we wanted Kadri was when Pierre decided he was the best offensive player on board and that we needed a forward. That's it. Story closed.

Like I said earlier: Why in the Diddle would he answer honestly and not at least try to avoid the direct question ("is (Kadri) who you want?") and deflect to what he had to offer. It doesn't make sense.

Ok, for those who argue that Murray's wanted Cowen all-along, and cite interviews with Tim Murray post-draft as evidence, let me ask you if you believe that representatives of a team would publicly reveal after the fact that they missed the player they wanted?

It is a much better PR move to say "yeah, we got the guy we wanted all along". I don't recall BM saying otherwise in any draft. Wouldn't make the player they drafted feel too good, nor the fans feeling confident.

Zibanejad was my pick for Ottawa, and I recall the reaction following his selection being very negative, as per the comments on TSN and Facebook. I would guess there's a lot of hypocrites out there right now.

Debating/arguing over whether Cowen or Kadri was the Sens #1 pick is speculation, and there nothing to gain from it. Whats done is done and the result is (at this time) Cowen is ahead in his development to the Sens than Kadri is to the Leafs.

Dash wrote:Ok, for those who argue that Murray's wanted Cowen all-along, and cite interviews with Tim Murray post-draft as evidence, let me ask you if you believe that representatives of a team would publicly reveal after the fact that they missed the player they wanted?

It is a much better PR move to say "yeah, we got the guy we wanted all along". I don't recall BM saying otherwise in any draft. Wouldn't make the player they drafted feel too good, nor the fans feeling confident.

Zibanejad was my pick for Ottawa, and I recall the reaction following his selection being very negative, as per the comments on TSN and Facebook. I would guess there's a lot of hypocrites out there right now.

Debating/arguing over whether Cowen or Kadri was the Sens #1 pick is speculation, and there nothing to gain from it. Whats done is done and the result is (at this time) Cowen is ahead in his development to the Sens than Kadri is to the Leafs.

Well, I'm not convinced they wanted Zib over Strome or anyone in the top-4. (That being said, I'm convinced they're happy with him.)

So how does that work?

I'm not a homer. I will call bs on Sens management when I see it. By the same token, when the Asst. GM of the team speaks two days after the draft and literally laughs at the idea that Burke played us and took the player we wanted, I'm inclined to believe we got the player we were after.

I also think its nonsense to believe that a true negotiation plays out in the way that video does. It's not like Burke says "Do you want Kadri?" and Murray says yes... Burke says "we're taking Kadri (period!) Is that who you want?" ............

This is the third time I'll say this: If Murray really did want Kadri, he wouldn't have answered that question.

What's going on with Drew Doughty? Are they going to sign him or not? As if they're letting it go on this long, the season starts in 1 1/2 weeks and he hasn't even practiced with them yet....i don't get it.

SensGirl11 wrote:What's going on with Drew Doughty? Are they going to sign him or not? As if they're letting it go on this long, the season starts in 1 1/2 weeks and he hasn't even practiced with them yet....i don't get it.

It's a bad situation....real bad.

The short version is:

-Doughty wants a shorter term - like Stamkos - so he can re-assess his worth in 5 years

-Lombardi thought the Stamkos term was far too player friendly (as do I)

-offered him a 9 year/6.8 per year offer, Doughty declined

-they're at an impasse now - Lombardi apparently won't budge, nor will he trade him

That's APPARENTLY what's happening.

PS - I support Lombardi on this one

How can you support Lombardi?

I support the $6.8mil cap, but I don't support forcing the length on the player. This is terrible handling of a true superstar.

If he isn't willing to budge on the term, drop his cap hit to $6.5mil. If Doughty wants to focus short term, so can Lombardi. And in the short term, Doughty was outscored last season by Johnson and was arguably 3rd on the depth chart.

You want to be the highest paid player? Fine. 3 years 20 million. Take it or leave it. Then we'll talk about making you the highest paid player.

You can't give someone a take it or leave it deal that forces them into a 9 year contract. That's complete nonsense.