August Question 4: The Most OVERrated Players

I'm sure there's still a surprisingly big Redden following in Ottawa that thinks he can turn it around.

My answer is Fraudeur. Mostly because he's a fraud.

SeawaySensFan wrote:My answer is Fraudeur. Mostly because he's a fraud.

And he also eurs a lot?

wprager wrote:

SeawaySensFan wrote:My answer is Fraudeur. Mostly because he's a fraud.

And he also eurs a lot?

I thought the "Mostly" covered that?

asq2 wrote:

Kovalfie wrote:Wade Redden but his sky is falling quick

Definitely not. That was perhaps the case while he was still playing for the Senators, but that stopped after a few games into his NYR career when the rest of the league realized Sens fans weren't being melodramatic about him.

I would have to say Jonathan Toews. I love the guy and he was great in the Olympics and the playoffs, but after the Cup/Conn Smythe there was a camp that was putting him on or above Crosby's level. This is a guy who still has yet to break the 70 point barrier despite having some remarkable talent around him (Kane, Hossa, Havlat, Sharp, etc.).

He's still an awesome player, although I think Backstrom has thus far been the best player out of the 2006 draft.

Side note, but I won't/haven't been around most of August. See you in September.

I would definitely be one who disagrees with you. There is more to hockey than scoring, and Toews shows that every game. He is a complete 2-way player, which is something I certainly wouldn't call Crosby. Toews has far fewer giveaways, far more takeaways, is counted upon when the team requires him most, including Penalty Killing.

Crosby played nearly 200 more PP minutes than Toews, a PP that boasted Malkin, Gonchar, Letang, and Guerin. There's a reason he had 34 PP points.

And he did step up his game when he needed to, getting 29 pts in 22 playoff games. That's 2 less points in 2 less games than Crosby did in his Cup year. Had over twice as many takeaways, fewer giveaways, lead his team in points, etc...

I know you like Toews as a player. But just because he doesn't put up the same points as Crosby, doesn't make him less of a superstar. He makes up for it in different areas of his game.

Milan Lucic comes to mind. I just got back from Boston and they treat him like a star there.

asq2 wrote:
I would have to say Jonathan Toews. I love the guy and he was great in the Olympics and the playoffs, but after the Cup/Conn Smythe there was a camp that was putting him on or above Crosby's level. This is a guy who still has yet to break the 70 point barrier despite having some remarkable talent around him (Kane, Hossa, Havlat, Sharp, etc.).

Agreed, the hype is a little overwhelming for him right now.

Daniel Alfredsson





(just kidding)

Taking salary out of the equation is tough. Maybe it's because I'm suffering from rumour overload, but I never understood the big deal about Tomas Kaberle. He deservers an honourable mention, along with Ryan Smith, Joe Thornton, Ilya Kovalchuk, and Ryan Malone.

My winner is J-Bo.

I'd say Jay Bouwmeester is right up there.

Bass Destruction wrote:
I would definitely be one who disagrees with you. There is more to hockey than scoring, and Toews shows that every game. He is a complete 2-way player, which is something I certainly wouldn't call Crosby. Toews has far fewer giveaways, far more takeaways, is counted upon when the team requires him most, including Penalty Killing.

Crosby played nearly 200 more PP minutes than Toews, a PP that boasted Malkin, Gonchar, Letang, and Guerin. There's a reason he had 34 PP points.

And he did step up his game when he needed to, getting 29 pts in 22 playoff games. That's 2 less points in 2 less games than Crosby did in his Cup year. Had over twice as many takeaways, fewer giveaways, lead his team in points, etc...

I know you like Toews as a player. But just because he doesn't put up the same points as Crosby, doesn't make him less of a superstar. He makes up for it in different areas of his game.

Guerin is awful.

Crosby's definitely a complete player - though Toews is still a cut above, especially defensively - but beyond that, the offensive gap between them is huge. In Crosby's worst NHL season he had 3 more points than Toews' career high, and that was in 53 games. In every other one he's broken 100 points. Granted you've mentioned the PP thing (albeit Pittsburgh's powerplay was awful last season), but if you disregard all of Crosby's powerplay points (and proficiency on the powerplay is a legitimate offensive talent in its own right) while keeping Toews' production as is, then Toews only has a 0.06 advantage in career PPG. And Crosby's points at even strength came with generally embarrassing linemates, whereas Toews plays with another border-liner superstar in Patrick Kane and has had other players like Hossa, Havlat, Sharp, Byfuglien, Versteeg, etc. around him.

My opinion is that Toews isn't as good or better than Crosby in sort of the same way as Mikko Koivu not being better than Malkin (though the comparison isn't perfect). If Toews is this new generation's Sakic/Yzerman, then Crosby is its Gretzky.

asq2 wrote:

Bass Destruction wrote:
I would definitely be one who disagrees with you. There is more to hockey than scoring, and Toews shows that every game. He is a complete 2-way player, which is something I certainly wouldn't call Crosby. Toews has far fewer giveaways, far more takeaways, is counted upon when the team requires him most, including Penalty Killing.

Crosby played nearly 200 more PP minutes than Toews, a PP that boasted Malkin, Gonchar, Letang, and Guerin. There's a reason he had 34 PP points.

And he did step up his game when he needed to, getting 29 pts in 22 playoff games. That's 2 less points in 2 less games than Crosby did in his Cup year. Had over twice as many takeaways, fewer giveaways, lead his team in points, etc...

I know you like Toews as a player. But just because he doesn't put up the same points as Crosby, doesn't make him less of a superstar. He makes up for it in different areas of his game.

Guerin is awful.

Crosby's definitely a complete player - though Toews is still a cut above, especially defensively - but beyond that, the offensive gap between them is huge. In Crosby's worst NHL season he had 3 more points than Toews' career high, and that was in 53 games. In every other one he's broken 100 points. Granted you've mentioned the PP thing (albeit Pittsburgh's powerplay was awful last season), but if you disregard all of Crosby's powerplay points (and proficiency on the powerplay is a legitimate offensive talent in its own right) while keeping Toews' production as is, then Toews only has a 0.06 advantage in career PPG. And Crosby's points at even strength came with generally embarrassing linemates, whereas Toews plays with another border-liner superstar in Patrick Kane and has had other players like Hossa, Havlat, Sharp, Byfuglien, Versteeg, etc. around him.

My opinion is that Toews isn't as good or better than Crosby in sort of the same way as Mikko Koivu not being better than Malkin (though the comparison isn't perfect). If Toews is this new generation's Sakic/Yzerman, then Crosby is its Gretzky.

The problem with saying that Crosby is this generation's Gretzky is that there are other players that produce at the same rate that he does, while Gretzky was a cut above the rest.

And I did concede that Crosby produces more than Toews in the regular season. But many would argue the playoffs are the only thing that counts, although i don't ( ). I also think that next year Toews is going to explode offensively in the regular season, based on his dominance in the playoffs. But regardless, I think Toews capabilities on defence are vastly underrated, far outweigh Crosby's, and should not be overlooked.

I also don't think saying Guerin is awful, but then say that Toews plays with solid linemates like Byfuglien and Versteeg is all that fair. Byfuglien's career high is fewer points than Guerin has put up in over a decade. Two seasons ago, Guerin still managed 36 pts in 61 games prior to the trade playing for the Islanders.

And they have tried Crosby with several gifted linemates in Pittsburgh, including Malkin, Guerin, Hossa, Sykora, Leclair, Palffy, even Armstrong (whose career high is also higher than Byfuglien's).

For the record, I'm not saying that their offensive talents are on par, because they are not, Crosby is the clear winner in that department; but that Toews' numbers have yet to be fully show his capabilities. Crosby will probably still outscore him by 20-30 points next year, but I, personally, believe that Toews overall play makes up for that.

PS: I highly respect everything you say. I hope nothing I said comes out as offensive, my intention was only to disagree, not be condescending or anything.

I think Toews maxes out at a PPG.

Bass Destruction wrote:The problem with saying that Crosby is this generation's Gretzky is that there are other players that produce at the same rate that he does, while Gretzky was a cut above the rest.

And I did concede that Crosby produces more than Toews in the regular season. But many would argue the playoffs are the only thing that counts, although i don't ( ). I also think that next year Toews is going to explode offensively in the regular season, based on his dominance in the playoffs. But regardless, I think Toews capabilities on defence are vastly underrated, far outweigh Crosby's, and should not be overlooked.

I also don't think saying Guerin is awful, but then say that Toews plays with solid linemates like Byfuglien and Versteeg is all that fair. Byfuglien's career high is fewer points than Guerin has put up in over a decade. Two seasons ago, Guerin still managed 36 pts in 61 games prior to the trade playing for the Islanders.

And they have tried Crosby with several gifted linemates in Pittsburgh, including Malkin, Guerin, Hossa, Sykora, Leclair, Palffy, even Armstrong (whose career high is also higher than Byfuglien's).

For the record, I'm not saying that their offensive talents are on par, because they are not, Crosby is the clear winner in that department; but that Toews' numbers have yet to be fully show his capabilities. Crosby will probably still outscore him by 20-30 points next year, but I, personally, believe that Toews overall play makes up for that.

PS: I highly respect everything you say. I hope nothing I said comes out as offensive, my intention was only to disagree, not be condescending or anything.

What? You don't come off as condescending at all. I hope I'm not either.

Yeah, I'll concede that Guerin is not considerably worse than Versteeg or Byfuglien, although I've talked to a number of Pens fans who are not, erm, a huge fan of his. The main piece here is Kane, who is IMO a quickly emerging superstar and who should end up as a perennial top-5 scorer. Crosby has Malkin, who is better, but they don't really play on the same line all that often. I guess Malone also played with Crosby, didn't he? It's still IMO a pretty pathetic collection of linemates, though. He had Hossa for a considerably shorter period of time than did Toews, and never had Havlat either.

Toews is a better defensive player, but this is another area where Crosby is improving quickly. Anyway, my point via the Crosby/Gretzky Toews/Yzerkic comparison (and admittedly not a valid one) is that Crosby's offensive dominance outweighs other areas where he is perhaps relatively lacking. Maybe - though I'll probably regret opening this can of worms - it'd be like comparing Spezza and Fisher, ignoring contracts.

Even looking at the playoffs, Toews has 42 points in 39 games, and Crosby has 82 points in 62 games. In 45 fewer games (granted, all post-lock-out), Sid's only 6 points off matching Alfie's career playoff output, and he's only just turned 23, which was IIRC Alfie's age when he entered the NHL. They both have a Cup, they both have a gold medal, and Toews admittedly has a Conn Smythe in his favour, but then Crosby has a Hart Trophy, Art Ross, Rocket Richard, Lester B. Pearson and even a Mark Messier leadership award. We as Sens fans should know better than anyone that when it comes to the playoffs, it's not just a bunch of numbers with Sid. He destroyed us.

Again, Toews is a wonderful player and I'd take him in an instant to build a team around, but I think the hockey community has a short memory, and likes to put players on a pedestal by focussing only on recent events. Remember how Zetterberg was supposed to be the "real" best player in the NHL? Or Lecavalier? Or Iginla?

Toews IMHO needs to have at least another great season (and/or increase his offensive numbers) to get into the discussion about being in the super-elite category. Crosby's had five (or at worst four) incredible years.

I don't think any of us would mind it if Toews got a chance at destroying us in the playoffs this year. Anyone?

Rick Nash and Cam Ward are also in the mix.

Oh no you didn't just mention Rick Nash I'm probably one of the last people you'd want to say that too lol

Size, skill, speed... not sure what else you want in a guy that is a total package. Easily a 40 goal scorer, PPG player, and hasn't really had some of the talent around him that a lot of others have.

Yeah I know you are a big fan, but like you said, the guy is billed as this perennial 40-goal scorer and PPG player, yet he has scored 40 goals only once and isn't anywhere close to having a PPG in his career. He is also incredibly inconsistent. He's a great player but the expectations for him are too high, IMO.

asq2 wrote:

Bass Destruction wrote:The problem with saying that Crosby is this generation's Gretzky is that there are other players that produce at the same rate that he does, while Gretzky was a cut above the rest.

And I did concede that Crosby produces more than Toews in the regular season. But many would argue the playoffs are the only thing that counts, although i don't ( ). I also think that next year Toews is going to explode offensively in the regular season, based on his dominance in the playoffs. But regardless, I think Toews capabilities on defence are vastly underrated, far outweigh Crosby's, and should not be overlooked.

I also don't think saying Guerin is awful, but then say that Toews plays with solid linemates like Byfuglien and Versteeg is all that fair. Byfuglien's career high is fewer points than Guerin has put up in over a decade. Two seasons ago, Guerin still managed 36 pts in 61 games prior to the trade playing for the Islanders.

And they have tried Crosby with several gifted linemates in Pittsburgh, including Malkin, Guerin, Hossa, Sykora, Leclair, Palffy, even Armstrong (whose career high is also higher than Byfuglien's).

For the record, I'm not saying that their offensive talents are on par, because they are not, Crosby is the clear winner in that department; but that Toews' numbers have yet to be fully show his capabilities. Crosby will probably still outscore him by 20-30 points next year, but I, personally, believe that Toews overall play makes up for that.

PS: I highly respect everything you say. I hope nothing I said comes out as offensive, my intention was only to disagree, not be condescending or anything.

What? You don't come off as condescending at all. I hope I'm not either.

Yeah, I'll concede that Guerin is not considerably worse than Versteeg or Byfuglien, although I've talked to a number of Pens fans who are not, erm, a huge fan of his. The main piece here is Kane, who is IMO a quickly emerging superstar and who should end up as a perennial top-5 scorer. Crosby has Malkin, who is better, but they don't really play on the same line all that often. I guess Malone also played with Crosby, didn't he? It's still IMO a pretty pathetic collection of linemates, though. He had Hossa for a considerably shorter period of time than did Toews, and never had Havlat either.

Toews is a better defensive player, but this is another area where Crosby is improving quickly. Anyway, my point via the Crosby/Gretzky Toews/Yzerkic comparison (and admittedly not a valid one) is that Crosby's offensive dominance outweighs other areas where he is perhaps relatively lacking. Maybe - though I'll probably regret opening this can of worms - it'd be like comparing Spezza and Fisher, ignoring contracts.

Even looking at the playoffs, Toews has 42 points in 39 games, and Crosby has 82 points in 62 games. In 45 fewer games (granted, all post-lock-out), Sid's only 6 points off matching Alfie's career playoff output, and he's only just turned 23, which was IIRC Alfie's age when he entered the NHL. They both have a Cup, they both have a gold medal, and Toews admittedly has a Conn Smythe in his favour, but then Crosby has a Hart Trophy, Art Ross, Rocket Richard, Lester B. Pearson and even a Mark Messier leadership award. We as Sens fans should know better than anyone that when it comes to the playoffs, it's not just a bunch of numbers with Sid. He destroyed us.

Again, Toews is a wonderful player and I'd take him in an instant to build a team around, but I think the hockey community has a short memory, and likes to put players on a pedestal by focussing only on recent events. Remember how Zetterberg was supposed to be the "real" best player in the NHL? Or Lecavalier? Or Iginla?

Toews IMHO needs to have at least another great season (and/or increase his offensive numbers) to get into the discussion about being in the super-elite category. Crosby's had five (or at worst four) incredible years.

I will agree with much that is written, and am glad that I'm not coming off as a prick. Would like to say I'm still a huge Zetterberg supporter though, think he is another vastly underrated player, not in terms of salary, but in terms of league recognition.

And I did not comment on your Toews comparison to Sakic/Yzerman, although I found it appropriate and fair, and is where I think Toews will max out, in the just above a point per game area. Toews won't ever be the offensive dynamo Crosby is, and it is possible that Crosby can become as solid as Toews is defensively, although I do not see it happening. I may be relying too heavily on Toews potential, which I am adamant he will reach, but nonetheless, has not yet.

But Crosby isn't as far ahead as Gretzky was in terms of other talent in the league. By this I mean in the height of Gretzky's career, he would be some 60 pts ahead of the next leading scorer in the league. In the one year Crosby did lead the league he was ahead by just 6 pts. But then again, we are comparing Crosby to Toews, and he does outscore Toews by 30-40 pts per year. But in your not so much comparison, but maybe allusion (can't think of the right word) I do see it, and do agree with it, in terms of the later years (late 90's.

Agree, people tend to only focus on recent events, however, Toews has only broken out in the last two years, and has been around for just 3.

And I really don't put much credence in the Messier Leadership award. I believe in leadership obviously, but when things are not quantifiable, it starts becoming a bit of a popularity award.

In conclusion, Toews rules, Crosby drools!