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GM Hockey » Ottawa Senators » Sens Prospect Camp - Interesting storylines to watch.

Sens Prospect Camp - Interesting storylines to watch.

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TheAvatar


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Veteran

wprager wrote:Rooney, my point was *never* that Neely was wrong. That he disagreed with you was not the point; what he disagreed about was not the point. That point has *always* been how he disagreed.

Sure, I've learned from his posts, just like everyone else, but in all my years of schooling I have never had a "teacher" quite like him.

This is getting damn ridiculous. Yes, Neely is opiniated. Yes, he can be argumentative. Keeps us all honest is what he did. AND ... HE Had very, very significantly mellowed out. He used to be down your throat in a minute but he was not so quick or so drastic as he had been before; he'd actually become quite tame ... Wink

Now, we can all argue with him when he's back; for now though; time to move on ...

TA

rooneypoo


All-Star
All-Star

Dash wrote:

If you think George Parros is the best player in the world of all time, then why does anyone need to argue with you otherwise? To simply argue with you is just going to get you on the defensive, so what's the point?

Guess there's no need to debate, or to talk, about anything at all then. Heaven forbid we examine our opinions, let alone be responsible for explaining why we hold those opinions in the first place.

Let's all stand around and talk out loud to ourselves, but never actually ever exchange any ideas, let alone talk to or listen to anyone else. Sounds like a recipe for meaningful conversation.

That, or solipsism. Whichever.

rooneypoo


All-Star
All-Star

Dash wrote:
Dash wrote:There's a very good book called 'How to Win Friends and Influence People'. I think everyone could benefit from reading it at least once.

Why would that call for a minus, may I ask?

I went to give you plus 1 for the undeserved minus, to balance things out, and then -- no word of a lie -- accidentally hit the minus button. Mea culpa. So go ahead and give me a minus to square things out.

Tho' in all fairness, that earlier "opinions don't need support" post definitely deserved a minus. I'm sorry, but that was a serious brainfart post.

Riprock

Riprock
All-Star
All-Star

Not what I said at all. I just see no reason to argue with someone about their opinion, which by definition is a personal belief. Arguing with someone you are trying to change their opinion, and in this case, why do I want to argue with you on who you think the best player in a sport is?

It's a lot different when someone says so and so is a coke head, with no proof. One is a compliment to a player, the other is libelous and slanderous.

And, if you wish to discuss an opinion, the more civil approach could be to say "That's an interesting opinion you have there. I'd be curious to know what it is about (player) that you admire so much?" If you tried to understand the other person's opinion and perhaps took a different approach to it, perhaps if you really must, you might be able to turn their opinion around if you go about it the right way.

TheAvatar

TheAvatar
Veteran
Veteran

Dash wrote:
Dash wrote:There's a very good book called 'How to Win Friends and Influence People'. I think everyone could benefit from reading it at least once.

Why would that call for a minus, may I ask?

Don't worry mate; I lost 2 (which is all I had) because I said I didn't like "Lost" ... Wink

rooneypoo

rooneypoo
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wprager wrote:Rooney, my point was *never* that Neely was wrong. That he disagreed with you was not the point; what he disagreed about was not the point. That point has *always* been how he disagreed.

Sure, I've learned from his posts, just like everyone else, but in all my years of schooling I have never had a "teacher" quite like him.

We almost always hate the teachers who teach us the most, who force us to come at a question from the side when we've always approached it straight on, who challenge our ideas and patterns of thinking and make us think.

Neely is no saint, god knows, and he can come off as abrasive, for sure, but the truth is that he helps keep people honest, which is what this site needs. Call him a necessary evil or whatever, but he helps bring balance. And the fact is that he has serious toned things down in response to complaints.

Anyway, the whole issue here is not whether or not everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but rather they are entitled to present that opinion without basis or support in a public forum and expect to have it pass by without scrutiny or commentary. The first everyone will grant, but the second I absolutely will not, and nor should any other thinking being on this planet. Everyone is entitled to his opinion, but the moment you express it in a public forum -- the moment you present it to the public as something worthy of consideration -- it is fair game for scrutiny and criticism. Be prepared for it, be prepared to support it, and be prepared to adapt when it comes. If you can't handle it, keep your opinions private and cherish them all your want.

A healthy dose of Neely is what we all need, even Neely himself. We can strive to be polite (something Neely has improved on), but lapses will happen. But the ugly fact that some opinions are dumb and ill supported remains, and we can't wish it away.

Riprock

Riprock
All-Star
All-Star

rooneypoo wrote:
Dash wrote:
Dash wrote:There's a very good book called 'How to Win Friends and Influence People'. I think everyone could benefit from reading it at least once.

Why would that call for a minus, may I ask?

I went to give you plus 1 for the undeserved minus, to balance things out, and then -- no word of a lie -- accidentally hit the minus button. Mea culpa. So go ahead and give me a minus to square things out.

Tho' in all fairness, that earlier "opinions don't need support" post definitely deserved a minus. I'm sorry, but that was a serious brainfart post.

Thanks for your honesty, but I will not give you a minus because you have not done anything to warrant it. I may disagree with you, but just because I do, it does not mean you deserve a minus. I think this +/- rating system we have here is flawed, because I think people are letting their emotions get to them. I don't believe in giving a minus to someone if they present their opinion or "argument" if you may, in a civil manner. It's when members use vulgarity, obscenity, immaturity or obnoxiousness that I feel the "-" to be deemed worthy.

And I guess it is my opinion that opinions do not require factual argumentation to support them. They are, afterall, an opinion drawn from emotion and personal beliefs and ideologies. I see no reason to have facts to support my opinion of "Rick Nash is the best hockey player in the world". First, it would be hard to prove, and second, arguing with me would prove futile and only put me on the defensive. If you were to ask me why I thought he was, I would say "he is a good two way player, a leader, a big man with great speed and great hands". Is he really the best player in the world? Maybe not, but am I wrong? Hardly, because it is my opinion and it likely won't change.



Last edited by Dash on Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:54 pm; edited 1 time in total

TheAvatar

TheAvatar
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rooneypoo wrote:
wprager wrote:Rooney, my point was *never* that Neely was wrong. That he disagreed with you was not the point; what he disagreed about was not the point. That point has *always* been how he disagreed.

Sure, I've learned from his posts, just like everyone else, but in all my years of schooling I have never had a "teacher" quite like him.

... A healthy dose of Neely is what we all need, even Neely himself. We can strive to be polite (something Neely has improved on), but lapses will happen. But the ugly fact that some opinions are dumb and ill supported remains, and we can't wish it away.

Yipper; some opinions are dumb and some mammas really are ubly ... Wink

Ev

Ev
Franchise Player
Franchise Player

Fine, we'll call people out when they are clearly and ridiculously out to lunch on their opinion, but we don't have to go "Ummmmmmmmmmmmm, do you even read what you write? Are you that dense?" or something to that effect.

PTFlea

PTFlea
Co-Founder
Co-Founder

Big Ev wrote:Fine, we'll call people out when they are clearly and ridiculously out to lunch on their opinion, but we don't have to go "Ummmmmmmmmmmmm, do you even read what you write? Are you that dense?" or something to that effect.

I hated that. For all the good Neely did, he was no angel.

TheAvatar

TheAvatar
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Veteran

you just keep it going and going and going ... enough already

asq2

asq2
All-Star
All-Star

The Sens Prospect Camp is over. This thread could be locked...jus' sayin'.

wprager

wprager
Administrator
Administrator

TheAvatar wrote:

I'm sorry to hear that. Did she say anything?

I didn't hear anything. I believe Dawg moved to Chicago or something like that.


_________________
Hey, I don't have all the answers. In life, to be honest, I've failed as much as I have succeeded. But I love my wife. I love my life. And I wish you my kind of success.
- Dicky Fox

wprager

wprager
Administrator
Administrator

rooneypoo wrote:
SpezDispenser wrote:Can we keep this thread on track? This Neely talk is over, ended yesterday. It's getting annoying now.

OK, I'm sorry, but the hypocrisy here is frightening. Three pages of posts on the latest episode of a random TV show? Two pages of pure fluff? 5 posts conjugating Russian verbs? No problem. As long as the topic is completely innocuous and vapid and people don't give a Dung about it, feel free to talk about it until you're blue in the face -- but if it's a contentious issue that people actually care about, shut your mouth and move on because we don't want to deal.

People are talking about it, and that's how we know it matters, and that's how we know isn't not over, either. Shutting up discussion is admitting that it matters and that it impacts people here, but that you don't want to deal.

Listen -- and I say this with the best of intentions towards this forum that you've pulled together -- the quality of the discussion on this site went down noticeably after Neely left last time, so much so that I, one of his greatest antagonists and ideological opponents at the time, was begging for him to come back and bring perspective to site that was being overrun by a lot of, frankly, loosey-goosey commentary and ill-informed discussion, something that was really alarming to see after a solid year of intelligent dialogue. A number of guys I talked with privately and on the forums noticed it, too, so it's not like it was just me.

For better or for worse, Neely helps to keep people honest and thinking critically
about their opinions. Don't just tell us to shut up about it -- or if you do, be prepared to hold that same "if it's not hockey, don't talk about it here" standard to everyone and to every post, because right now, it's coming off as a double standard big time.

Who the hell told anyone to shut up???! SpezD said let's get back on track and that this Neely talk was getting annoying.


_________________
Hey, I don't have all the answers. In life, to be honest, I've failed as much as I have succeeded. But I love my wife. I love my life. And I wish you my kind of success.
- Dicky Fox

wprager

wprager
Administrator
Administrator

TheAvatar wrote:you just keep it going and going and going ... enough already

It's cathartic. It'll be over when it's over. No sense fighting it. At least not until there's some *real* news.


_________________
Hey, I don't have all the answers. In life, to be honest, I've failed as much as I have succeeded. But I love my wife. I love my life. And I wish you my kind of success.
- Dicky Fox

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