Wow, you guys have my sympathy

SpezDispenser wrote:Also, I wouldn't really compare Toronto's woes to Ottawa's. Ottawa has a plan, they've drafted really well, they've made some smart decisions and they're not likely to spend 4.5 million on Komisarek/Volchenkov.

I'm sure Toronto will get better slowly but surely, but having no 1st round picks this year is gonna hurt real bad. And don't tell me that Kaberle will yield a 1st rounder - and even if he does, there goes the only guy who can move the puck on the back end - or if not the only guy, easily the best guy.

There's a lot of mediocrity on the Leafs. Kessel is great, Phaneuf is great, Beauchemin is good. The rest are all unknowns or guys with 'potential' - heck I can't even name the 2nd line center on the Leafs (I assume to the top line center is Bozak). It's gonna be a long time before the Leafs are seriously competing and while guys like Kessel and Phaneuf are explosive, neither screams winner to me personally.

You see it your way, I'll see it mine. Mine is that the Sens might be in trouble, big trouble.

For the sake of arguement though, do smart decisions include huge extensions to Heatley and Spezza, when they had to know there were issues there?
How about keeping Redden over Chara?
How about letting Volchenkov walk this summer for nothing (it looks that way right now)

There is a lot of mediocrity on the Sens also, and if this Spezza thing doesn't resolve itself, there will be even more real soon.

No question the Leafs are the most deserving laughing stocks of any professional sports team right now, but I think things aren't all that bright in Ottawa. Beyond that, I would take our roster (for future potential) over yours! ...

I am sure you don't agree, but then again, that is to be expected from us fans

Michallica wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:

SensFan71 wrote:
that is what scares me, another summer of this? man, talk about Ottawa ranking at the lowest when it comes to places for UFA's come to play, Toronto is more appealing and they are not destined to see a playoff game for at least another year, maybe 2.

Another summer of this? I don't think so.

One of the reasons Murray has opened this up publicly is to test Spezza IMO. If he was 'open' to a trade once, he might be 'demanding' a trade at another time. So Murray's giving him an option here, there will be pressure throughout your career, there will be a lot of pressure to live up to the contract, to lead the Sens - if you want out of this market, now's the time to come to him and not be 'open' to it, to ask for it.

If he mopes around and doesn't decide, then he's gone. If he goes to Murray and says, get me out, he's gone. If he says, I can take this and I'm happy here, then he stays.

I think that's what's happening.

If you're spezza, do you wanna stay? He changes his style of game, and ppl crap on him. He goes back to his old style and racks up points, and they still crap on him. Every mistake is glorified, but every goal is 'meh'. There's another argument where spezza has gotta be thick skinned and most of all not listen to the media and the crowds. But that's hard when you're committing to spend your entire career in this city.

Here's the problem with that: He doesn't have to play Dung D and an irresponsible game to put up points. He was close to being what he needs to be early in the season and he quit on it to try to appease people. He only has himself to blame.

That's where the character/personality discussion comes into play and it's the main reason why I'm not worried about Karlsson. If people start Dung on him for this or that, he'll just keep evolving in the way he knows is right. Spezza can learn a little in that respect from the kid... And, quite frankly, I'm excited to see what the two of them can do next season together. Spezza has never had a D-man with that kind of skill to play with. The two will be brilliant if Spezza is still here.

Aetherial wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:Also, I wouldn't really compare Toronto's woes to Ottawa's. Ottawa has a plan, they've drafted really well, they've made some smart decisions and they're not likely to spend 4.5 million on Komisarek/Volchenkov.

I'm sure Toronto will get better slowly but surely, but having no 1st round picks this year is gonna hurt real bad. And don't tell me that Kaberle will yield a 1st rounder - and even if he does, there goes the only guy who can move the puck on the back end - or if not the only guy, easily the best guy.

There's a lot of mediocrity on the Leafs. Kessel is great, Phaneuf is great, Beauchemin is good. The rest are all unknowns or guys with 'potential' - heck I can't even name the 2nd line center on the Leafs (I assume to the top line center is Bozak). It's gonna be a long time before the Leafs are seriously competing and while guys like Kessel and Phaneuf are explosive, neither screams winner to me personally.

You see it your way, I'll see it mine. Mine is that the Sens might be in trouble, big trouble.

For the sake of arguement though, do smart decisions include huge extensions to Heatley and Spezza, when they had to know there were issues there?
How about keeping Redden over Chara?
How about letting Volchenkov walk this summer for nothing (it looks that way right now)

There is a lot of mediocrity on the Sens also, and if this Spezza thing doesn't resolve itself, there will be even more real soon.

No question the Leafs are the most deserving laughing stocks of any professional sports team right now, but I think things aren't all that bright in Ottawa. Beyond that, I would take our roster (for future potential) over yours! ...

I am sure you don't agree, but then again, that is to be expected from us fans

I agree with most of that.

I called Murray out based on Neely's arguments about Spezza and Heatley and asked why he would keep them around knowing full well there "are" issues. But Neely said trading them after making the cup finals would be a bad move... well what's worse? Trading them when their value is high or letting Heatley demand a trade and handcuff the team, or have this on going thing with Spezza?

Murray knows damn well he won't keep Volchenkov, and I highly doubt they are feuding over 500K. It wouldn't surprise me either if Murray did re-sign him last minute, and it wouldn't surprise me if he walked for nothing. We saw him re-sign Neil and Kuba at the very last second when we thought for sure they were gone. He's also dumped two 2nd round picks on guys that could walk also. If he isn't careful he's going to lose Volchenkov, Sutton and Cullen, and he will miss out on free agents.

Chara over Redden was Muckler, and while it is a monumental mistake for the franchise, I won't mention anything else since it is well past.

Aetherial wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:Also, I wouldn't really compare Toronto's woes to Ottawa's. Ottawa has a plan, they've drafted really well, they've made some smart decisions and they're not likely to spend 4.5 million on Komisarek/Volchenkov.

I'm sure Toronto will get better slowly but surely, but having no 1st round picks this year is gonna hurt real bad. And don't tell me that Kaberle will yield a 1st rounder - and even if he does, there goes the only guy who can move the puck on the back end - or if not the only guy, easily the best guy.

There's a lot of mediocrity on the Leafs. Kessel is great, Phaneuf is great, Beauchemin is good. The rest are all unknowns or guys with 'potential' - heck I can't even name the 2nd line center on the Leafs (I assume to the top line center is Bozak). It's gonna be a long time before the Leafs are seriously competing and while guys like Kessel and Phaneuf are explosive, neither screams winner to me personally.

You see it your way, I'll see it mine. Mine is that the Sens might be in trouble, big trouble.

For the sake of arguement though, do smart decisions include huge extensions to Heatley and Spezza, when they had to know there were issues there?
How about keeping Redden over Chara?
How about letting Volchenkov walk this summer for nothing (it looks that way right now)

There is a lot of mediocrity on the Sens also, and if this Spezza thing doesn't resolve itself, there will be even more real soon.

No question the Leafs are the most deserving laughing stocks of any professional sports team right now, but I think things aren't all that bright in Ottawa. Beyond that, I would take our roster (for future potential) over yours! ...

I am sure you don't agree, but then again, that is to be expected from us fans

a) what else were they supposed to do?
b) that was a muck-job and before the current plan was set in place
c) overrated by a LONG shot.

I like what Toronto has done and I'm convinced you'll be solidly in a playoff position come April, but the idea that Toronto's future roster is head-and-shoulders above Ottawa's is nonsense. From what I see, each team has a lot to be excited about in the future and Imo will be taking turns ruling the division. Obviously Boston will factor in, but I'm not sold on 80% of their roster.

Anyways, Ottawa is in a good position going-forward, with or without Spezza.

Aetherial wrote:
You see it your way, I'll see it mine. Mine is that the Sens might be in trouble, big trouble.

For the sake of arguement though, do smart decisions include huge extensions to Heatley and Spezza, when they had to know there were issues there?
How about keeping Redden over Chara?
How about letting Volchenkov walk this summer for nothing (it looks that way right now)

There is a lot of mediocrity on the Sens also, and if this Spezza thing doesn't resolve itself, there will be even more real soon.

No question the Leafs are the most deserving laughing stocks of any professional sports team right now, but I think things aren't all that bright in Ottawa. Beyond that, I would take our roster (for future potential) over yours! ...

I am sure you don't agree, but then again, that is to be expected from us fans

1.Coming off a Cup Finals run where Heatley and Spezza were two of the four major stars (behind or on par with Alfie and Emery)? It's called bad timing man, not to mention that the landscape has now changed, guys are getting less for longer, there's more emphasis on cap hits. Murray took over the GM job from Muckler - who was useless as tits on a bull, he was faced with either re-signing Spezza and Heatley and Emery and Fisher, or letting them walk. What would you have done?
2.Redden was coming off one of the best seasons of his life when Muckler made the dubious choice to keep him over Chara, while Chara SUCKED in the playoffs due to a broken hand. Still, there's no excuse, but we couldn't have kept both. Still, that decision is Muckler and the Sens will spend a long time recovering from that.
3.As for Volchenkov, I would be pissed if we spent a penny over 4 million on Volchenkov. He's not worth it, just like Komisarek isn't worth 4.5. I'd rather let him walk and spend the money on a more well rounded D-man.

Dash wrote:

Chara over Redden was Muckler, and while it is a monumental mistake for the franchise, I won't mention anything else since it is well past.

(for the benefit of Spezdispenser also)


I also think people have VERY short memories.

At the time the Sens made that decision, Redden was statistically better than Chara for like the previous 5 years or something. In fact, I think he was statistically top 3 in the league. I remember this because I did a piece once defending McCabe, and only Redden (at the time) had better +/- and point totals.

It was difficult to foresee that, somehow (still a Mystery) Redden devolved into a bottom pairing d-man at best.

When people (like me) criticize the Sens organization for that decision, it is a PERFECT example of hind-sight being 20/20.

... just like some people criticizing the Leafs for the Kessel trade. I am quite sure Burke never expected to even be in the lottery when he made that trade. I hated it from moment one, without hindsight

Pretty much everyone criticized the Kessel trade from the outset. Mainly because it was Diddling nonsense.

Aetherial wrote:

Dash wrote:

Chara over Redden was Muckler, and while it is a monumental mistake for the franchise, I won't mention anything else since it is well past.

(for the benefit of Spezdispenser also)


I also think people have VERY short memories.

At the time the Sens made that decision, Redden was statistically better than Chara for like the previous 5 years or something. In fact, I think he was statistically top 3 in the league. I remember this because I did a piece once defending McCabe, and only Redden (at the time) had better +/- and point totals.

It was difficult to foresee that, somehow (still a Mystery) Redden devolved into a bottom pairing d-man at best.

When people (like me) criticize the Sens organization for that decision, it is a PERFECT example of hind-sight being 20/20.

... just like some people criticizing the Leafs for the Kessel trade. I am quite sure Burke never expected to even be in the lottery when he made that trade. I hated it from moment one, without hindsight

That's what happens to drugs adicts and alcholics.

Didn't Beflour play his best when he was drunk?