Update: Leafs acquire Phaneuf + 2 others for Hagman, Stajan, White and Mayers (CONFIRMED) + Giguere for Blake and Toskala (CONFIRMED)

Also, it's completely irrelevant to the subject at hand but Spezza is 26, not 27.

hemlock wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:I should clarify something, given some of the other responses to this trade:

I DO think this makes CGY a better team THIS year. Stajan and Hagman are decent players -- solid 2nd/3rd line players who can contribute 50+ points a season. And I really like White, I do.

The problem as I see it is the long-term aspect of this deal. Phaneuf is/was among the top-5 young defencemen in the league. Half of CGY's return becomes UFA/RFA after this year. I just don't think that's a good enough return on Phaneuf, especially since you had to give up Aulie to make the deal happen.

At the beginning of next year, CGY will have Hagman and White on their roster, and maybe Stajan if they can afford him. I guess that's not horrible, after all, if you think Phaneuf is done / overrated / overpaid -- but I just can't write off a 24-year all-star this early into his career.

Only when they hit 27 right?

Sorry, I couldn't resist

All kinds of comments for this one (and the related ones that followed):

-- at 27, Spezza enters his would-be UFA years, which means his NMC kicks in. So, yeah, there's a HUGE difference between 24 and 26 in my mind. TOR has 3 more years before they have to make up their mind on the future of Phaneuf, and they're not tied down with a big, untradeable contract thereafter. We have about that many months to figure things out with Spezza.

-- everyone and their mom knows that it takes defencemen far longer to develop than forwards. You have to be more patient with young defencemen. For a defenceman to struggle with in his own end in the first half-dozen or so years of his career is not unheard of at all.

-- one of the bigger reasons that I'm opposed to this deal is not so much Phaneuf as the inclusion of Aulie. I don't see why they had to include the best prospect along with the best player to make this deal happen.

-- you'll notice that, by the end of that post, I had pretty much talked myself into the position that, 'hey, actually, this deal isn't all that bad for CGY going forward, as long as they can sign White to a good contract, and as long as Stajan does well and they can sign him, too.' I can see the first happening quite easily; and the latter seems probable, if not a sure thing. So, yeah, I look at that deal and I start to think, 'if we could send Cheechoo the other way, and/or get a team to include a high draft pick / good prospect, we might have to consider a deal for Spezza just like that.'

asq2 wrote:Also, it's completely irrelevant to the subject at hand but Spezza is 26, not 27.

Yep. But all my posts have been saying "he's TURNING 27 this year." And 27 is a key year for Spezza -- it's the beginning of his UFA-eligible years, and hence the beginning of his NMC.

rooneypoo wrote:

hemlock wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:I should clarify something, given some of the other responses to this trade:

I DO think this makes CGY a better team THIS year. Stajan and Hagman are decent players -- solid 2nd/3rd line players who can contribute 50+ points a season. And I really like White, I do.

The problem as I see it is the long-term aspect of this deal. Phaneuf is/was among the top-5 young defencemen in the league. Half of CGY's return becomes UFA/RFA after this year. I just don't think that's a good enough return on Phaneuf, especially since you had to give up Aulie to make the deal happen.

At the beginning of next year, CGY will have Hagman and White on their roster, and maybe Stajan if they can afford him. I guess that's not horrible, after all, if you think Phaneuf is done / overrated / overpaid -- but I just can't write off a 24-year all-star this early into his career.

Only when they hit 27 right?

Sorry, I couldn't resist

All kinds of comments for this one (and the related ones that followed):

-- at 27, Spezza enters his would-be UFA years, which means his NMC kicks in. So, yeah, there's a HUGE difference between 24 and 26 in my mind. TOR has 3 more years before they have to make up their mind on the future of Phaneuf, and they're not tied down with a big, untradeable contract thereafter. We have about that many months to figure things out with Spezza.

-- everyone and their mom knows that it takes defencemen far longer to develop than forwards. You have to be more patient with young defencemen. For a defenceman to struggle with in his own end in the first half-dozen or so years of his career is not unheard of at all.

-- one of the bigger reasons that I'm opposed to this deal is not so much Phaneuf as the inclusion of Aulie. I don't see why they had to include the best prospect along with the best player to make this deal happen.

-- you'll notice that, by the end of that post, I had pretty much talked myself into the position that, 'hey, actually, this deal isn't all that bad for CGY going forward, as long as they can sign White to a good contract, and as long as Stajan does well and they can sign him, too.' I can see the first happening quite easily; and the latter seems probable, if not a sure thing. So, yeah, I look at that deal and I start to think, 'if we could send Cheechoo the other way, and/or get a team to include a high draft pick / good prospect, we might have to consider a deal for Spezza just like that.'

im still not up to trading spezza, he is not hurting us by being on this team,

sens4win wrote:
im still not up to trading spezza, he is not hurting us by being on this team,

If the best that can be said about Spezza is that "he's not hurting this team," I think you're making my argument for me, and more concisely.

rooneypoo wrote:

sens4win wrote:
im still not up to trading spezza, he is not hurting us by being on this team,

If the best that can be said about Spezza is that "he's not hurting this team," I think you're making my argument for me, and more concisely.

ok to be honest i wouldn't mind trading spezza but i don't want us getting what we got for heatley in return if i were to trade spezza i would want a equal skilled center

rooneypoo wrote:

hemlock wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:I should clarify something, given some of the other responses to this trade:

I DO think this makes CGY a better team THIS year. Stajan and Hagman are decent players -- solid 2nd/3rd line players who can contribute 50+ points a season. And I really like White, I do.

The problem as I see it is the long-term aspect of this deal. Phaneuf is/was among the top-5 young defencemen in the league. Half of CGY's return becomes UFA/RFA after this year. I just don't think that's a good enough return on Phaneuf, especially since you had to give up Aulie to make the deal happen.

At the beginning of next year, CGY will have Hagman and White on their roster, and maybe Stajan if they can afford him. I guess that's not horrible, after all, if you think Phaneuf is done / overrated / overpaid -- but I just can't write off a 24-year all-star this early into his career.

Only when they hit 27 right?

Sorry, I couldn't resist

All kinds of comments for this one (and the related ones that followed):

-- at 27, Spezza enters his would-be UFA years, which means his NMC kicks in. So, yeah, there's a HUGE difference between 24 and 26 in my mind. TOR has 3 more years before they have to make up their mind on the future of Phaneuf, and they're not tied down with a big, untradeable contract thereafter. We have about that many months to figure things out with Spezza.

-- everyone and their mom knows that it takes defencemen far longer to develop than forwards. You have to be more patient with young defencemen. For a defenceman to struggle with in his own end in the first half-dozen or so years of his career is not unheard of at all.

-- one of the bigger reasons that I'm opposed to this deal is not so much Phaneuf as the inclusion of Aulie. I don't see why they had to include the best prospect along with the best player to make this deal happen.

-- you'll notice that, by the end of that post, I had pretty much talked myself into the position that, 'hey, actually, this deal isn't all that bad for CGY going forward, as long as they can sign White to a good contract, and as long as Stajan does well and they can sign him, too.' I can see the first happening quite easily; and the latter seems probable, if not a sure thing. So, yeah, I look at that deal and I start to think, 'if we could send Cheechoo the other way, and/or get a team to include a high draft pick / good prospect, we might have to consider a deal for Spezza just like that.'

I certainly agree that defencemen take longer to develop, but the rate of decline that Phaeuf has shown is scary. He's actually gone backwards in terms of his decision making. Not getting better, or slowly progressing I get, but getting worse?? Not good. His contract may not be untradeable at 27 but the Leafs would still be on the hook for $13 million.

I can't envision a scenario where we trade Spezza for a pick and prospect as part of a package just to rid ourselves of Cheechoo. Right now, perhaps Eberle and Edmonton's first, but I can't think of much else. Plus, I don't see too many teams eager to take $10 million in salary regardless of what's coming our way. That's alot of pieces to try and fit into a puzzle.

sens4win wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

sens4win wrote:
im still not up to trading spezza, he is not hurting us by being on this team,

If the best that can be said about Spezza is that "he's not hurting this team," I think you're making my argument for me, and more concisely.

ok to be honest i wouldn't mind trading spezza but i don't want us getting what we got for heatley in return if i were to trade spezza i would want a equal skilled center

wouldn't have minded picking up staal so much for that

Just FYI, Ian White is 1 year older than Phaneuf...

The Spezza hate is out of control, even rears its ugly head in a TML thread about their breaking news.

Some people really need to find new additional hobbies, too much time hating...

TeamRenzo wrote:The Spezza hate is out of control, even rears its ugly head in a TML thread about their breaking news.

Some people really need to find new additional hobbies, too much time hating...

Yup, it's hate. It isnt a realistic point of view at all given that he is 27 and supposed to be in his prime. Good call! Always good to hear what you have to say.

TeamRenzo wrote:The Spezza hate is out of control, even rears its ugly head in a TML thread about their breaking news.

Some people really need to find new additional hobbies, too much time hating...

Spezza hate? LOL! Read the comments before you dismiss them!

Anyway, I think everybody sees the close parallel between Phaneuf and Spezza -- former superstars and all-stars, young, big contracts, declining numbers, rumours about locker room issues, etc, etc. This trade has consequences for Spezza's value, perceived and real.

The leafs now have 4 d-men making more than Ottawa's top earner (Kuba) - and Finger is only 200k less.

Phaneuf - 6.5M
Komi - 4.5M
Kaberle - 4.25M
Beauchemin - 3.8M
Finger - 3.5M
Schenn - 3M (with bonus)

That's 26M for the top 6. If you include Giggy (6M) and Goof (2.5M) for next year - that's ~34M on the back end. Then 5.4M for Kessel - that only leaves 15-17M for a minimum of 11 forwards.

Am I missing something?

Hayden wrote:The leafs now have 4 d-men making more than Ottawa's top earner (Kuba) - and Finger is only 200k less.

Phaneuf - 6.5M
Komi - 4.5M
Kaberle - 4.25M
Beauchemin - 3.8M
Finger - 3.5M
Schenn - 3M (with bonus)

That's 26M for the top 6. If you include Giggy (6M) and Goof (2.5M) for next year - that's ~34M on the back end. Then 5.4M for Kessel - that only leaves 15-17M for a minimum of 11 forwards.

Am I missing something?

Not really, no. Kaberle will have to leave, Finger will have to play in the minors. Man oh man...that's a lot of $$ spent on D and Giguere.

SpezDispenser wrote:

Hayden wrote:The leafs now have 4 d-men making more than Ottawa's top earner (Kuba) - and Finger is only 200k less.

Phaneuf - 6.5M
Komi - 4.5M
Kaberle - 4.25M
Beauchemin - 3.8M
Finger - 3.5M
Schenn - 3M (with bonus)

That's 26M for the top 6. If you include Giggy (6M) and Goof (2.5M) for next year - that's ~34M on the back end. Then 5.4M for Kessel - that only leaves 15-17M for a minimum of 11 forwards.

Am I missing something?

Not really, no. Kaberle will have to leave, Finger will have to play in the minors. Man oh man...that's a lot of $$ spent on D and Giguere.

I did forget about their buyouts as well.

I haven't read all of the posts in this topic, but from the ones I did read, it seems like everyone is in agreement that Calgary got fleeced.

A few comments-

In all honesty, I think Toronto got fleeced. Today, they've managed to trade away all of their offensive talent, with the exception of Kessel, Grabs and Poni- the latter two being marginal at best.. They added a slumping defender in Phaneuf (who i realize has potential..), as well as JS Giguere, who has been on a steady decline since the equipment regulations were imposed.

So now Toronto has 9 D-men on their roster costing them almost 27 million dollars- most of which can be considered deadweight (Finger, Van Ryn, Exelby, Schenn ATM).

I think Toronto is going to have a terribly difficult time scoring goals. Phaneuf has been known to disrupt dressing rooms and carry a bad attitude, and I can only imagine how that's going to go over with the egos in the centre of the hockey universe.

Moving to Calgary, I think Bob McKenzie said it best- they addressed all kinds of needs that the team desperately required, and they cleared up a big chunk of cap space to go out and get a Kovalchuk to make a run.

I really don't get the inclusion of Aulie though. That's a pretty solid prospect. Does anybody have an update on the kid?


Either way, this is a knee-jerk reaction from Burke, and while he's definitely working towards the future, I cannot imagine that this is going to help them this year.

Jordo wrote:I haven't read all of the posts in this topic, but from the ones I did read, it seems like everyone is in agreement that Calgary got fleeced.

A few comments-

In all honesty, I think Toronto got fleeced. Today, they've managed to trade away all of their offensive talent, with the exception of Kessel, Grabs and Poni- the latter two being marginal at best.. They added a slumping defender in Phaneuf (who i realize has potential..), as well as JS Giguere, who has been on a steady decline since the equipment regulations were imposed.

So now Toronto has 9 D-men on their roster costing them almost 27 million dollars- most of which can be considered deadweight (Finger, Van Ryn, Exelby, Schenn ATM).

I think Toronto is going to have a terribly difficult time scoring goals. Phaneuf has been known to disrupt dressing rooms and carry a bad attitude, and I can only imagine how that's going to go over with the egos in the centre of the hockey universe.

Moving to Calgary, I think Bob McKenzie said it best- they addressed all kinds of needs that the team desperately required, and they cleared up a big chunk of cap space to go out and get a Kovalchuk to make a run.

I really don't get the inclusion of Aulie though. That's a pretty solid prospect. Does anybody have an update on the kid?


Either way, this is a knee-jerk reaction from Burke, and while he's definitely working towards the future, I cannot imagine that this is going to help them this year.

CGY did not clear up any cap space, or very, very little -- unless you mean, they cleared cap space for next year, which they did only if they don't re-sign White and Stajan (which makes this deal make even less sense).

In any event, none of this helps them clear space now to acquire Kovalchuk. Given that the latter is on the final year of his deal, there are no 'tagging' issues to consider either.

Jordo wrote:I haven't read all of the posts in this topic, but from the ones I did read, it seems like everyone is in agreement that Calgary got fleeced.

A few comments-

In all honesty, I think Toronto got fleeced. Today, they've managed to trade away all of their offensive talent, with the exception of Kessel, Grabs and Poni- the latter two being marginal at best.. They added a slumping defender in Phaneuf (who i realize has potential..), as well as JS Giguere, who has been on a steady decline since the equipment regulations were imposed.

So now Toronto has 9 D-men on their roster costing them almost 27 million dollars- most of which can be considered deadweight (Finger, Van Ryn, Exelby, Schenn ATM).

I think Toronto is going to have a terribly difficult time scoring goals. Phaneuf has been known to disrupt dressing rooms and carry a bad attitude, and I can only imagine how that's going to go over with the egos in the centre of the hockey universe.

Moving to Calgary, I think Bob McKenzie said it best- they addressed all kinds of needs that the team desperately required, and they cleared up a big chunk of cap space to go out and get a Kovalchuk to make a run.

I really don't get the inclusion of Aulie though. That's a pretty solid prospect. Does anybody have an update on the kid?


Either way, this is a knee-jerk reaction from Burke, and while he's definitely working towards the future, I cannot imagine that this is going to help them this year.

Well said. Aulie is a player. Everything I've heard says the Flames did have plans for him, so he could help Toronto for sure, down the line as shutdown guy with some skill. Sjostrom is also a sizable piece of this deal too. Last year, he and Blair Betts formed the best PK duo in the league. This guy can really help the Leafs PK, which is beyond awful.