Should the A-Train make a one way trip out of town?

asq2 wrote:Obviously. I'm just saying that from the evidence that we've received thus far, it doesn't make sense to trade Volchie unless you want to do a full re-build.

Well it also doesnt make sense to sign Vulchankov for 5 years at 4.5 mil. Again, there are a lot of scenario's that have to play out along with what the desires are of the team and player.

If A Train asked for what Komiserek got, I would let him walk. I dont think he's a 4 million dollar D man.

It also won't happen because players the calibre of Crosby and Malkin are generational and not found in most drafts. Hall is a terrific player, but definitely a cut below at least.

If you do want to do that (and we did it before, with less successful results coming from Yashin and Daigle), though, then we're moving most of our blue-line, Alfredsson, Fisher, and maybe even Spezza.

I don't see that happening either.

asq2 wrote:
People talk about Volchenkov asking for too much money but I highly doubt he'll wind up with more than $4 million, or at the very worst $4.5 million. That's only a $1.5-2 million raise. Why has nobody addressed the idea of moving salary up front? We've got replaceable guys like Ruutu, Neil and Kelly earning significant coin, and under-achievers like Kovalev and Cheechoo earning big coin as well.

The money differential between our forwards and our defence is outrageous. Spezza and Kovalev earn more than our entire regular blue-line combined. It'd be good to pay someone like Volchenkov some coin because it would be symbolic of a desire to create a more balanced roster.

You can talk about the length of the deal, which is definitely where the downsides come in, but by then Kuba's no longer on the payroll, and later in the deal, if necessary, it's easier to buy him out. Also, if you're seriously concerned with the lack of forward prospects, we've got three picks in the first two rounds this season.

I just think there are so many better solutions to our problems than trading Volchenkov.

That's exactly it. When it comes to this discussion, both you and N4L raise differing but equally valid points. The logic behind trading him, given a set of assumptions about the state of this team, has definite merit. That being said, the logic behind re-signing him and shedding some unnecessary salary from the forward ranks is very strong.

Before he got injured, Volchenkov was our best defender. It wasn't a question. He was making smarter plays in all three zones than any of the others and leading all of them in virtually every statistical category. Additionally, we've gone in the tank since his injury and we've now fallen well behind the Conference leaders. While we may not be a true contender in the East, we certainly boast a roster that should be in the upper echelon of teams in the Eastern Conference.

When you look at our salary structure for strictly next season, we have almost 35 million tied-up in just 9 forwards; we also have 3 RFA's most of us would like to hold on to and 2 UFA's who can take the spot of someone already signed for that season (Shannon for Cheechoo and Donovan for Ruutu). Our defense, on the other hand, has a an overwhelming 8 million tied-up in 3 players, with a additional 2+ likely to be added to the squad in the form of our two prized rookies. That leaves 1-2 slot(s) open for an additional player to round out the D-corps. We have 1 UFA and 3 RFA's. The hierarchy for priority re-signings is debatable, but the 1st slot is not---we all know Volchenkov is more important to this team now and in the future than any of Lee, Campoli, or Picard; in all likelihood, we can get all three of them on 2-way contracts, but if one holds out we can just tell him to go Diddle himself.

Add in goalies and we've got approximately 46-47 million tied-in to 9 F, 5 D, and 2 G. That leaves us almost 10M for 3-4 forwards and 1-2 D. Obviously we all know to look a little further down the line than that, but thats the financial snapshot for next season. At worst (best) players like Regin, Lee, and Foligno have solid seasons and we have to fork over 3M to each of them. Add in Winchester and Smith at 1M total and there's your 10M.

So what do we do? Buy out Cheechoo? Thats 2M saved. Trade Ruutu? With the replacement player, that somewhere in the $500,000 range. Trade/buy-out Kelly? That's another 1.5-2.2M to add in, minus the cost of his replacement.

The question is: Are we a better team with Volchenkov---and for the sake of argument, let's say Winchester, Smith, and Bass---than we are with Cheechoo, Ruutu, and Kelly, plus a downgrade, Volchie replacement?

Imo the value of those 3 tradeables shouldn't be underestimated, but it still doesn't match what Volchenkov brings to the table. He is far less replaceable than any of the three we would have to move to afford him. And the year after, Kovalev comes off the books, which immediately frees up the money Volchenkov's contract will take up, plus...

True. It doesn't always work out. I would even take guys of the Phaneuf, Shae Weber, Kane, Toews, Tavares, Stamkos, Mike Green calibre for a couple seasons of drafting.

N4L wrote:I would rather have A Train then Kuba if that is the actual choice. 3.7 for A Train over 3.7 for Kuba, yes. Again though, it all comes down to numbers, the circumstances going forward, and so on.

Oh yeah: and we can trade Kuba once his NTC expires on June 30, 2010.

Cap'n Clutch wrote:To be perfectly honest if we're not contenders I'd prefer to take the Pittsburgh Penguins route to success by sucking arse for 2 or 3 years and picking up players in the draft that are close to the calibre of Malkin, Crosby and J. Staal. I do realize that will never happen here in Ottawa so lets keep on tinkering and tweaking in hopes of the right mix.

People often overlook or disregard what Murray wants here. It's about the fan base and the owner, too, but the man building the roster is in his twilight and is undoubtedly looking for some immediate success. Asq mentioned doing what's right by Alfie, and that fits quite well with our GM, who is in a very similar situation as the Captain. The remaining timeline for Alfie's playing career likely mirrors the remaining timeline Murray's managerial career.

We all want what's best for the team in the long-term, but a full-scale rebuild will not happen so long as Murray is at the helm. Hopefully they do find that right mix at some point during that timeline. You'd get no objections from me.

Cap'n Clutch wrote:True. It doesn't always work out. I would even take guys of the Phaneuf, Shae Weber, Kane, Toews, Tavares, Stamkos, Mike Green calibre for a couple seasons of drafting.

Phaneuf is a 9th over-all pick, Mike Green 28th over-all, Shea Weber was found in the 2nd round.

It seems pretty evident that we've had success in the draft recently without picking in the top-5. Karlsson, Cowen, Lehner, Wiercioch and Silfverberg are our finds in the top-2 rounds in 2008-2009. Petersson and Grant look pretty good outside of that, as does Zack Smith.

I've been a proponent of tanking in the past, but it's definitely not the only way to go and I just don't feel it's fair to Alfredsson.

Gohan wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:To be perfectly honest if we're not contenders I'd prefer to take the Pittsburgh Penguins route to success by sucking arse for 2 or 3 years and picking up players in the draft that are close to the calibre of Malkin, Crosby and J. Staal. I do realize that will never happen here in Ottawa so lets keep on tinkering and tweaking in hopes of the right mix.

People often overlook or disregard what Murray wants here. It's about the fan base and the owner, too, but the man building the roster is in his twilight and is undoubtedly looking for some immediate success. Asq mentioned doing what's right by Alfie, and that fits quite well with our GM, who is in a very similar situation as the Captain. The remaining timeline for Alfie's playing career likely mirrors the remaining timeline Murray's managerial career.

We all want what's best for the team in the long-term, but a full-scale rebuild will not happen so long as Murray is at the helm. Hopefully they do find that right mix at some point during that timeline. You'd get no objections from me.

Good point.

We can debate the merits of different moves, but it's pretty clear a radical shift in direction or outlook won't happen.

Like I said in another thread. Regardless of what we think will happen we will most likely see A-Train re-signed based on Murray's MO.

Cap'n Clutch wrote:Like I said in another thread. Regardless of what we think will happen we will most likely see A-Train re-signed based on Murray's MO.

Yeah, I said that last night. Murray would be loathe to let a hard-nosed warrior like A-Train go.

The talk seems to be that we can't keep Kuba, Phillips, and Volchenkov together going forward. If that's the case, I'd rather see Kuba dealt. Volchenkov's game would be harder to replace than Kuba's imo. Plus I think Kuba's offensive upside would fetch more at the deadline (which is almost certainly when one of them would be moved).

That talk seems perfectly ridiculous to me.

It's like we're hellbent on spending $50 million on our forwards, all else be damned.

Whilst I understand the arguments to trading A-Train - especially for a guy like Beech (18 goals in 18 games - a lot of them coming from Jared Cowen), the importance of keeping the quality of the D-man we have right now - and adding the rookies like Cowen and Karlsson next year, then Wiercioch in 2 or 3 years will make the transition a lot easier.

@Hemlock: Well two of them have NTC's so its highly unlikely either would be dealt then. I think this discussion is about next year and beyond.

And I agree with you.

Gohan wrote:@Hemlock: Well two of them have NTC's so its highly unlikely either would be dealt then. I think this discussion is about next year and beyond.

And I agree with you.

If it's even a discussion at all. Have we got an idea from Murray somehow that talks aren't going well? Are we even at the point of looking at this as a viable option? Right now, Volchenkov is the unsung backbone of that D. Right now there are no real issues with having to sign him before some soft deadline or risk losing him. Right now, we can't afford to trade him, particularly for say, a guy like Beach and pick, unless Murray is planning to have Taylor Hall centre Beach, because without Volchenkov, we've been pretty miserable defensively.

asq2 wrote:That talk seems perfectly ridiculous to me.

It's like we're hellbent on spending $50 million on our forwards, all else be damned.

Down the line I'd much rather have a $7 million centreman (who we've already got), and a $5-6 million D-man and goaltender (who we could potentially have).

I don't like the idea of taking on a massive contract at any position right now, unless his name is Weber, Kopitar or someone of that stature. I'd much rather grow our own superstars. Every successful team has balance and to do that in todays NHL that means having value contracts. The best way to do that, is to grow your own.

I'm perfectly happy to wait for the 3 horses on D, and Lehner and whomever else. Sure, I'd love to see Alfie win one, but we just don't have the kind of great young players on value contracts to have a championship calibre team....yet.

hemlock wrote:

Down the line I'd much rather have a $7 million centreman (who we've already got), and a $5-6 million D-man and goaltender (who we could potentially have).

I don't like the idea of taking on a massive contract at any position right now, unless his name is Weber, Kopitar or someone of that stature. I'd much rather grow our own superstars. Every successful team has balance and to do that in todays NHL that means having value contracts. The best way to do that, is to grow your own.

I'm perfectly happy to wait for the 3 horses on D, and Lehner and whomever else. Sure, I'd love to see Alfie win one, but we just don't have the kind of great young players on value contracts to have a championship calibre team....yet.

Yeah, that sums it up pretty well.

I don't think we're close to being a contender either. But trying to be one (within reason) is IMO better than tanking when you've got a player who means as much to your franchise as Alfredsson playing out his last few years.

There are other benefits to keeping Volchenkov as well IMO. You can develop more of a culture of winning, and equip both Karlsson and Cowen with experienced partners.