Bryan Murray Vs Dany Heatley: Who Blinks First?

rooneypoo wrote:

cas wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

N4L wrote:I dont whip Picard, I actually just said I put him on the same level and Meszaros in the other thread.

You're about 1 of 4 sensible people here who don't habitually bash him. :___:

We've had this discussion in the past and I see him much the way you do. I'm just curious who the 4th person is

Spez has been something of a (somewhat waffling) supporter. Possible asq2, too, if I remember right.

So thats 5 in a fan base of 500,000...

I like his chances.

Picard is a guy Murray believes in, he was a key peice to the deal when we got him. I trust Murray's eye for talent and as anyone who knows hockey knows, defensive defense is the hardest skill to learn in the NHL and it takes a while for a young defenseman to get it. Positioning, anticipation and switching are quite complicated at NHL game speed.

cas wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

N4L wrote:Why would people? He makes under a mil, can put the puck in the net and is our 5/6 D man... he's fine in that spot and is what? 22 years old?

Largely because they thought he was sloppy in his own end.

Which might be a fair criticism except for the fact that 1) the team was a mess under Hartsburg, top to bottom, 2) Picard was injured when Clouston arrived and never got to be a part of the Clouston turn-around, and 3) Picard is a 5-6th, young, OFFENSIVE defenceman, but some people seem to be expecting him to be Robyn Regher or Anton Volchenkov already.

All true but none of that saves him from the reality that competition will be tough in camp and if he doesn't impress, that 1-way of his is his ticket out of town.

I'm confident he'll seal a spot on Day 1, but its far from a sure thing.

Actually, I think Smith's retiring pretty much cements our D lineup for this year, with Kuba, Phillips, Volchenkov, and Campoli all locks, and with Lee, Picard, and Karlsson all fighting for spots 5 and 6, probably all season long. No reason to ship any of those three guys out -- none at all, as both Lee and Karlsson are on 2-way deals.

The only guy left out of the picture, if you still count him as a D on this team, is Schubert. And the only way he displaces Picard is if we can't possibly get Schubert off the team through trade or waivers and are stuck with his salary (can't imagine Melnyk letting us bury almost $1 mil in Bingo), or if he's a piece required to get, say, the Heatley deal done.

But, more realistically, I think Picard, Lee, and Karlsson will battle for those bottom two spots all year long. If things go as expected, Karlsson will claim a spot for himself before season's end -- and then we'll have to make the decision -- Lee OR Picard.

I think you're right. I just don't see Lee competing with either of them, regardless of the strides he made this season. He's also already shown an underserved sense of entitlement - his supposed tantrum at being sent down initially, last season; his talking back to refs...

I see Lee being too arrogant to realistically see his place on this team. If he's shoved aside for another 1st round pick (a later 1st round pick) who's 3 years his junior, he may not take it well

rooneypoo wrote:

cas wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

N4L wrote:Why would people? He makes under a mil, can put the puck in the net and is our 5/6 D man... he's fine in that spot and is what? 22 years old?

Largely because they thought he was sloppy in his own end.

Which might be a fair criticism except for the fact that 1) the team was a mess under Hartsburg, top to bottom, 2) Picard was injured when Clouston arrived and never got to be a part of the Clouston turn-around, and 3) Picard is a 5-6th, young, OFFENSIVE defenceman, but some people seem to be expecting him to be Robyn Regher or Anton Volchenkov already.

All true but none of that saves him from the reality that competition will be tough in camp and if he doesn't impress, that 1-way of his is his ticket out of town.

I'm confident he'll seal a spot on Day 1, but its far from a sure thing.

Actually, I think Smith's retiring pretty much cements our D lineup for this year, with Kuba, Phillips, Volchenkov, and Campoli all locks, and with Lee, Picard, and Karlsson all fighting for spots 5 and 6, probably all season long. No reason to ship any of those three guys out -- none at all, as both Lee and Karlsson are on 2-way deals.

The only guy left out of the picture, if you still count him as a D on this team, is Schubert. And the only way he displaces Picard is if we can't possibly get Schubert off the team through trade or waivers and are stuck with his salary (can't imagine Melnyk letting us bury almost $1 mil in Bingo), or if he's a piece required to get, say, the Heatley deal done.

But, more realistically, I think Picard, Lee, and Karlsson will battle for those bottom two spots all year long. If things go as expected, Karlsson will claim a spot for himself before season's end -- and then we'll have to make the decision -- Lee OR Picard.

Could you see them buying out Schubert and signing a guy like Sykora?

I dont think Murray needs to buy Schubert out. HE Can probably trade him, or worst case scenario somone will grab him off waivers.

He's a usefull player, even if he's a goof in his own zone.

jamvan wrote:

Could you see them buying out Schubert and signing a guy like Sykora?

If Heatley stays -- very unlikely. A guy like Sykora only makes sense if the return on Heatley at forward isn't adequate for our needs now and we stand to lose a lot of production at forwward (i.e., any trade where the centrepiece coming back to OTT is a D or young prospect).

Right now, we just have too many forwards on 1-way deals, and prospects chomping at the bit to get a shot (Regin, Z. Smith, Zubov), to accommodate any more forwards on one-way deals without seeing some movement first. Who do you move to make room for Sykora? Neil (the guy you just signed because you couldn't let him go)? Winchester, Foligno, Shannon (young kids, cheap, getting better all the time)? Kelly, Ruutu (one half of your PK unit, just signed last year)? Donovan (dirt cheap, does everything asked of him, took a discount to stay here)? I just don't see many options here.

Buying Schubert out is not an option at this point. The buyout season has passed. So, too, I think, has our FA spending. Kovalev is our big top-6 acquisition on the year. I wouldn't expect anything else unless maybe if Heatley is moved and the return coming back isn't as strong at forward as we would like.

I don't believe we can buy out Schubert at this point anyway, I was trying to see what his hit would be if we did, and well it said he would have had to been bought out prior to August 4 this year.

rooneypoo wrote:

jamvan wrote:

Could you see them buying out Schubert and signing a guy like Sykora?

If Heatley stays -- very unlikely. A guy like Sykora only makes sense if the return on Heatley at forward isn't adequate for our needs now and we stand to lose a lot of production at forwward (i.e., any trade where the centrepiece coming back to OTT is a D or young prospect).

Right now, we just have too many forwards on 1-way deals, and prospects chomping at the bit to get a shot (Regin, Z. Smith, Zubov), to accommodate any more forwards on one-way deals without seeing some movement first. Who do you move to make room for Sykora? Neil (the guy you just signed because you couldn't let him go)? Winchester, Foligno, Shannon (young kids, cheap, getting better all the time)? Kelly, Ruutu (one half of your PK unit, just signed last year)? Donovan (dirt cheap, does everything asked of him, took a discount to stay here)? I just don't see many options here.

Buying Schubert out is not an option at this point. The buyout season has passed. So, too, I think, has our FA spending. Kovalev is our big top-6 acquisition on the year. I wouldn't expect anything else unless maybe if Heatley is moved and the return coming back isn't as strong at forward as we would like.

As far as adding pieces goes, I think Murray addressed it at the Sens presser for the Smith retirement:

Smith's retirement also removes his salary off the Senators' books and puts the team under the league-mandated cap, whether Dany Heatley returns to the team for 2009-10 or not.

"That's a big item, but it's not the item of the day by any means," said Murray. "We just had to make one player move and it would have fit anyway. This is that move at this point."

http://senators.nhl.com/team/app/?service=page&page=NewsPage&articleid=497532&cmpid=rss-brodie

Barring a Heatley trade or some big time improvement by Smith or Regin, I would expect our lineup to look much like the one I posted.

Sidenote: From TSN, as of early this week Heatley has yet to return Alfie's calls.

Not earthshattering news, but continues to show Heatley's commitment to the team.

Its under videos on TSN

If Sykora costs 2 million let's say, then we still would be hovering around the cap. I wouldn't do it as much as I want him to round out our top 9. Regin needs an opportunity. So does Zubov actually. We're all really hard on him, but he had a better season that Regin when you extrapolate it. Zubov had 4 points in his final 20 games or something unheard of like that, if he had maintained his pace from the first 50 games, we'd be talking about him right now as if he's the second coming of Mogilny.

M_Christopher wrote:Sidenote: From TSN, as of early this week Heatley has yet to return Alfie's calls.

Not earthshattering news, but continues to show Heatley's commitment to the team.

Its under videos on TSN

Pfft. I'm starting to wonder why Alfie would take the time out of his day to answer that call.

M_Christopher wrote:Sidenote: From TSN, as of early this week Heatley has yet to return Alfie's calls.

Not earthshattering news, but continues to show Heatley's commitment to the team.

Its under videos on TSN

You act like he's been calling him non stop. He said he hasnt spoken to Heatley yet this summer, that's it.

SpezDispenser wrote:If Sykora costs 2 million let's say, then we still would be hovering around the cap. I wouldn't do it as much as I want him to round out our top 9. Regin needs an opportunity. So does Zubov actually. We're all really hard on him, but he had a better season that Regin when you extrapolate it. Zubov had 4 points in his final 20 games or something unheard of like that, if he had maintained his pace from the first 50 games, we'd be talking about him right now as if he's the second coming of Mogilny.

As in Jimmy Mogilny - the guy that never stood a chance??

:KJK: Am I reading that right?

Labour Day Weekend...does BM get something done?

Does Dany come to camp next week?

Do the Senators need the possible aggro?

Does anyone/everyone REALLY think that The Dany Fracas will have no negative effect on the other members of the team?

All this and more in our next episode of "As The Heater Turns"...

cas wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:If Sykora costs 2 million let's say, then we still would be hovering around the cap. I wouldn't do it as much as I want him to round out our top 9. Regin needs an opportunity. So does Zubov actually. We're all really hard on him, but he had a better season that Regin when you extrapolate it. Zubov had 4 points in his final 20 games or something unheard of like that, if he had maintained his pace from the first 50 games, we'd be talking about him right now as if he's the second coming of Mogilny.

As in Jimmy Mogilny - the guy that never stood a chance??

:KJK: Am I reading that right?

ah I just re-read it and I missed the word first in "pace from the first 50 games"

What was he on pace for at that point? 80? 90?

SpezDispenser wrote:If Sykora costs 2 million let's say, then we still would be hovering around the cap. I wouldn't do it as much as I want him to round out our top 9. Regin needs an opportunity. So does Zubov actually. We're all really hard on him, but he had a better season that Regin when you extrapolate it. Zubov had 4 points in his final 20 games or something unheard of like that, if he had maintained his pace from the first 50 games, we'd be talking about him right now as if he's the second coming of Mogilny.

Mogilny?

Spez> watch out for that premature extrapolation...
:^^^^:

But you've got to look at the whole season, not just the first 60 games. That drop off at the end is an alarm. The pace just gets faster and heavier in the NHL -- if he could only play 60 at full speed in the AHL, maybe in the NHL he runs out of gas after 40.

He needs to put together a solid, full season. Even if the numbers are not as flashy overall, consistency has to be there.