Spezza won't be traded.

Neely4Life wrote:Saying the things he did in that article today reak of desperation on his part.

Why? I don't understand that rationale. If Murray wanted to, he could trade Spezza to a laundry list of teams. LA being a team that's continually shown interest - and now they're upping the ante to get Vinny out of TB. If Murray was to come in and say, okay, let's make a deal for Spezza, LA would have to give up much less - and get a guy who can play with Dustin Brown - one of those natural leader kind of guys.

If a franchise is to stay in Atlanta, they should be smashing down Murray's door to try to get someone to play with Kovalchuk who's skill level is a step up from Little's.

And so on and so on. I would say 5 to 7 teams would have serious interest - and 3 would be coming in with legitimate offers.

If you want to compare Spezza to someone who is a little more current, it is Pierre Turgeon. A guy with all the tallent in the world that could never be counted on when it counts and someone who's character was constantly questioned. He had a good career and put up great numbers, but he wont be remember for anything but being a guy who had tallent and got bounced around the league.

Dave also left out Crosby and Datdyuk from that list, so that just shows you how far behind Spezza is in his development as a NHL center. The guy has super star tallent but he'll never put it together, not in Ottawa anyways. Way too many mistakes were made with him by the organization and this goes back to the Martin days when he was force fed Spezza by Muckler.

Dave is bang on with everything and on top of that, if Murray ever wants to win a Cup in the NHL, it has to be now and like it or not the best chance of that happening is with Spezza otherwise its a rebuild and he wont be around to see the end results of that. Only problem is the Sens have no shot in hell winning a cup or even making it to the finals again for at least 3, 4, maybe more than 5 years. Today's article, IF TRUE, (thats a big if) has me totally questioning the direction this team is headed in. Not so much for keeping Spezza, I get that, but for the comments made as to why they are keeping him and the related comments to Team Canada.

davetherave wrote:...
If one looks at the performance, and not just in terms of statistics, of four of the top centres playing in this year's Final Four--say Eric Staal, Jonathan Toews, Evgeni Malkin and Henrik Zetterberg--only one of them makes as much as Spezza. All of them are more complete players, and all are 'team first'.

Add Crosby to the mix here I think... but I think to suggest these guys are out of his league is a mistake. Everyone looks good in a good year and bad in a bad year. Malkin was horrible last playoffs. Staal has 60 fewer points in as many games in his career, sure he won the Cup but he can thank Cam Ward for that. Switch Emery for the Ward of his Conne Smythe year and Spezza has a ring too. Toews is going to be great but had 69 pts this year in 82 games and is only 2 years in... Zetterberg is one of the best in the game as is Crosby...

I think it is easy to pick on Spezza but at the end of the day he is one of the top centers in the game and he would play for 29 other teams if we didn't want him.

I don't care for the Jubilee Fine Jewellers commercial.

I understand the frustration with certain parts of Spezzas game. I just don't think you ignore the point production he brings.

I'm sure the Sharks would love to have Spezza over Thornton. Think of a player you pine for and you can almost bet Spezza is just as valuable to other teams.

He has done the following:

• Played in the OHL @ 15 years old
  
• Third 16 year old to play at the WJHC
  
• Drafted 2nd overall
  
• Won 2 bronzes and a silver at the WJHC
  
• Won 2 Silvers at the Mens World Championships
  
• No. 1 center on a SCF team (@ 22 years old) tied franchise record for 22 pts in those playoffs
  
• More than a PPG player (418 pts in 404 games)
  
• 117 pts in Bingo
  
• Career high 92 pts a year ago
  
• Contributes time to Roger's House and Spelling with Spezza
  
  

His Jr career is just filled with failure, OHL and internationally. Has the ever been a kid who was bounced around the OHL like he was, put on top contenders and failed to get it done? Never. If you really want to talk about his jr career, aside from the obvious points he put up, he was a failure of a leader, go to guy, and a team mate. NEVER did he ever win the big there as well as having 3 shots at a gold with Canada in the WJC.

I also hate the term "win silver", you NEVER win Silver, you lose Gold. You win Bronze honestly.

In Bingo during the lockout, that year was a complete and utter failure by the entire organization. They got bounced in the 2nd round having the most stacked team the AHL has seen in probably close to 20 years. An absolute failure that Spezza was front and center for, and once again, failed to win the big game there, or even get to the conferance final.

Being a PPG player in the NHL is all well and working hard in the gym is what will allow him to compete. Winners and character guys dont worry about how many points they put up, they worry about what they can do, and what they have to do to help the team win. Also last time I checked, the game wasnt played in the gym.

MurderOnIce wrote:

davetherave wrote:...
If one looks at the performance, and not just in terms of statistics, of four of the top centres playing in this year's Final Four--say Eric Staal, Jonathan Toews, Evgeni Malkin and Henrik Zetterberg--only one of them makes as much as Spezza. All of them are more complete players, and all are 'team first'.

Add Crosby to the mix here I think... but I think to suggest these guys are out of his league is a mistake. Everyone looks good in a good year and bad in a bad year. Malkin was horrible last playoffs. Staal has 60 fewer points in as many games in his career, sure he won the Cup but he can thank Cam Ward for that. Switch Emery for the Ward of his Conne Smythe year and Spezza has a ring too. Toews is going to be great but had 69 pts this year in 82 games and is only 2 years in... Zetterberg is one of the best in the game as is Crosby...

I think it is easy to pick on Spezza but at the end of the day he is one of the top centers in the game and he would play for 29 other teams if we didn't want him.

The two teams in the finals right now wouldnt touch Spezza with a 10 foot pole.

I think we've covered all this. I also think today's article is a guy who knows what he's talking about saying that he likes what he's seeing from this young man.

I'm surprised we went on this big a tangent to be honest. Spezza is coming along, he over achieved with Heatley when we went to the Finals, but he's got immense talent.

We need someone to come in as his winger who's got veteran leadership to make sure he's on the right path.

I guess some people read that article and didn't like the sound of it. I like it, Murray knows what he's talking about. He can assess talent, so can his scouts. I don't think there's much more to say right now.

Neely wants Fisher as our #1 Center.

MOI> please don't misread or misinterpret my post.

I suggested that watching how these four centermen have played in this year's SCPs, and making a comparison to Spezza, tends to accentuate the aspects that have been criticized about Jason Spezza.

The statistical comparisons are irrelevant in this context.

The ability of these players to lead their teams by example...NOW...is the point.

Can Jason Spezza match that level going forward? Forget the past. What he's done, is done. What he does next, is relevant to the progress of the Senators and, one supposes, the opinions of Senators fans.

And I am NOT taking sides on this issue...just offering another perspective.

Neely4Life wrote:

His Jr career is just filled with failure, OHL and internationally. Has the ever been a kid who was bounced around the OHL like he was, put on top contenders and failed to get it done? Never. If you really want to talk about his jr career, aside from the obvious points he put up, he was a failure of a leader, go to guy, and a team mate. NEVER did he ever win the big there as well as having 3 shots at a gold with Canada in the WJC.

I also hate the term "win silver", you NEVER win Silver, you lose Gold. You win Bronze honestly.

In Bingo during the lockout, that year was a complete and utter failure by the entire organization. They got bounced in the 2nd round having the most stacked team the AHL has seen in probably close to 20 years. An absolute failure that Spezza was front and center for, and once again, failed to win the big game there, or even get to the conferance final.

Being a PPG player in the NHL is all well and working hard in the gym is what will allow him to compete. Winners and character guys dont worry about how many points they put up, they worry about what they can do, and what they have to do to help the team win. Also last time I checked, the game wasnt played in the gym.

No-one will ever convince you so I can't worry about it. At the end, I guess people need someone to sh!t on... and he's your man...

SeawaySensFan wrote:I don't care for the Jubilee Fine Jewellers commercial.

I understand the frustration with certain parts of Spezzas game. I just don't think you ignore the point production he brings.

I'm sure the Sharks would love to have Spezza over Thornton. Think of a player you pine for and you can almost bet Spezza is just as valuable to other teams.

I think people really have to start watching other teams and other players around the league on a far more regular basis.

As far as his PPG production goes, obviously its up there with the best. But who does he score against? Who does he dominate? I remember the game against Detroit this year, Datsyuk made Spezza look like a pre-pubecent teen, it was honestly sad.

The centers and forwards coming into this league are almost more complete than Spezza, the "holes in his game" are dramatic to say the least. It's not just a tweek here and a tweek there, it's a lot more than that.

Look at Zetterberg, that's a top end player. Crosby is the same deal. Datsyuk might be the best all around player in the game. Malkin is even far more agressive and physical than Spezza. That's 2 teams with 4 centers that are on an absolute other level then Spezza.

Toews, captain of his team already and I woul be shocked if Spezza ever wore a "C" in the NHL ever. Same with a guy like Richards.

The best comparable to Spezza in the league right now are Savard (who with Julian as his coach as turned into a fairly complete player) and Ribiero. Watch their games (if you have center ice) and you will see exactly what I am talking about.

MurderOnIce wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:

His Jr career is just filled with failure, OHL and internationally. Has the ever been a kid who was bounced around the OHL like he was, put on top contenders and failed to get it done? Never. If you really want to talk about his jr career, aside from the obvious points he put up, he was a failure of a leader, go to guy, and a team mate. NEVER did he ever win the big there as well as having 3 shots at a gold with Canada in the WJC.

I also hate the term "win silver", you NEVER win Silver, you lose Gold. You win Bronze honestly.

In Bingo during the lockout, that year was a complete and utter failure by the entire organization. They got bounced in the 2nd round having the most stacked team the AHL has seen in probably close to 20 years. An absolute failure that Spezza was front and center for, and once again, failed to win the big game there, or even get to the conferance final.

Being a PPG player in the NHL is all well and working hard in the gym is what will allow him to compete. Winners and character guys dont worry about how many points they put up, they worry about what they can do, and what they have to do to help the team win. Also last time I checked, the game wasnt played in the gym.

No-one will ever convince you so I can't worry about it. At the end, I guess people need someone to sh!t on... and he's your man...

Well, I ask you, what has a team that Spezza has been on ever won? Has there ever been a player that has been put in better positions to succeed by a combination of his agent, team management (at every level), and team mates that failed to get it done?

I'm not trying to argue over this, but do you think it's just bad luck that he no team he has played on as achieved anything other than a 2nd place finish. No one remembers who finsihed 2nd or 5th in the league in scoring.

davetherave wrote:MOI> please don't misread or misinterpret my post.

I suggested that watching how these four centermen have played in this year's SCPs, and making a comparison to Spezza, tends to accentuate the aspects that have been criticized about Jason Spezza.

The statistical comparisons are irrelevant in this context.

The ability of these players to lead their teams by example...NOW...is the point.

Can Jason Spezza match that level going forward? Forget the past. What he's done, is done. What he does next, is relevant to the progress of the Senators and, one supposes, the opinions of Senators fans.

And I am NOT taking sides on this issue...just offering another perspective.

Those who fail to learn and change based on past history are also bound to repeat it.

davetherave wrote:MOI> please don't misread or misinterpret my post.

I suggested that watching how these four centermen have played in this year's SCPs, and making a comparison to Spezza, tends to accentuate the aspects that have been criticized about Jason Spezza.

The statistical comparisons are irrelevant in this context.

The ability of these players to lead their teams by example...NOW...is the point.

Can Jason Spezza match that level going forward? Forget the past. What he's done, is done. What he does next, is relevant to the progress of the Senators and, one supposes, the opinions of Senators fans.

And I am NOT taking sides on this issue...just offering another perspective.

What I am trying to say is that he WAS the Number one center on a team that went to the cup just 2 years ago. All of the glass half full fans in Ottawa can't take that away. If Spezza was not in the line-up the reality is that we wouldn't have made the cup final.

IMO in that cup final, the rules changed 180 degrees. It was the first year that we were focused on 'eliminating the clutching and grabbing' and then the refs decided to stop that for the final. Someone should have told the Sens and they might all have cup rings. Maybe not, but someone should have circulated the memo....

Additionally Pronger was suspended twice in those finals and got a mere game for a momentum changing head shot that knocked out McAmmond who was playing great for us. If memory serves we won the game he sat out for... If he got two or three which he should have got...

Neely4Life wrote:

davetherave wrote:MOI> please don't misread or misinterpret my post.

I suggested that watching how these four centermen have played in this year's SCPs, and making a comparison to Spezza, tends to accentuate the aspects that have been criticized about Jason Spezza.

The statistical comparisons are irrelevant in this context.

The ability of these players to lead their teams by example...NOW...is the point.

Can Jason Spezza match that level going forward? Forget the past. What he's done, is done. What he does next, is relevant to the progress of the Senators and, one supposes, the opinions of Senators fans.

And I am NOT taking sides on this issue...just offering another perspective.

Those who fail to learn and change based on past history are also bound to repeat it.

I'll take another SCF run please....

Neely4Life wrote:I think people really have to start watching other teams and other players around the league on a far more regular basis.

As far as his PPG production goes, obviously its up there with the best. But who does he score against? Who does he dominate? I remember the game against Detroit this year, Datsyuk made Spezza look like a pre-pubecent teen, it was honestly sad.

The centers and forwards coming into this league are almost more complete than Spezza, the "holes in his game" are dramatic to say the least. It's not just a tweek here and a tweek there, it's a lot more than that.

Look at Zetterberg, that's a top end player. Crosby is the same deal. Datsyuk might be the best all around player in the game. Malkin is even far more agressive and physical than Spezza. That's 2 teams with 4 centers that are on an absolute other level then Spezza.

Toews, captain of his team already and I woul be shocked if Spezza ever wore a "C" in the NHL ever. Same with a guy like Richards.

The best comparable to Spezza in the league right now are Savard (who with Julian as his coach as turned into a fairly complete player) and Ribiero. Watch their games (if you have center ice) and you will see exactly what I am talking about.

How did you digress from a really, really good take on things to this?

Spezza beat the Wings single handedly. Scored 2 of the 3 goals in a 3-2 win I believe. What about that? Where was Datsyuk and Zetterberg then? Does that mean that they sucked, but they got better? Or does it mean that Spezza was amazing and he digressed? Because, honestly, it's hard to imagine a 25 year old taking steps backwards. He might, but these are the guys that bounce back and get it. Datsyuk was in this exact position 2 years ago. No one wanted to touch him, but he started getting better and better - and now he's one of the leaders of a championship team.

He was a bust in the playoffs and called soft. Year after year. But the Wings had patience in him and believed. And they got rewarded.

Somewhere along the way you have to let the hate for Spezza subside a bit and believe in guys like Murray, Dorion, Fehr, Clouston, Alfredsson and even Melnyk. Because rest assured, they all have their fingers on the pulse of the Sens. Way more so than you or I do.

OK Neels, I'll bite.

Since you're obviously dissatisfied with the guy, what would you do?

He's a talented #1 center who albeit isn't a leader (there are LOTS of guys who are top-tier talent who aren't), but gets the job done. There is no one else in the organization even remotely at his level who plays center.

He's young and he's signed long term.

What's your move?

In all honesty MOI, could things have gone any more perfectly during that cup run? EVERYTHING went the Sens way. Every bounce, every call, every missed call up until the finals. I dont think there has ever been a team to just role through their conferance like the Sens did that year.

Thats where the problem is in Ottawa, when things go their way, they can't be stopped, but teams have figured out to get in their way like the Ducks did and you have seen the results. Just like in the finals that year, onced faced with adversity the Sens fold it up along with Spezza.