Ottawa prospect Number 1

SeawaySensFan wrote:

wprager wrote:You guys are setting yourselves up for disappointment.  He had a very good WJC but I wouldn't say he dominated.  He was a very versatile player (played both the PP and PK -- the only one to do it regularly, I think), he scored timely goals, always gave 100%, made it hard for the other team.  Yet he did not necessarily dominate on a team that finished out of the medals.

Look, I'm not knocking the kid at all.  It's a silly tournament.  I'm much more excited about how his team won the Memorial -- a much harder tournament to win, IMO.  But, again, although he was a very important cog in that machine he was not the "put contery on are back" cog.  

In my opinion, in his first go at it he will be an effective third liner, not more.  He's not a small guy, but he's not NHL big yet.  He's not a slow guy, but I don't think he's NHL fast, not yet.  He's not a plug, but he certainly does not have the high-end skillset.  He's got intangibles coming out of his ears but he will need more than third line minutes and, I'm afraid, better (more experienced?) linemates to make the kind of impact some of you seem to be expecting.

I'd love to be proven wrong, I just don't see him doing very much in his first year.  Wouldn't even surprised me if he ended up being sent back to junior for a while.

Even Neo didn't make the first jump.

I think you're right for once.

Ev wrote:

wprager wrote:You guys are setting yourselves up for disappointment.  He had a very good WJC but I wouldn't say he dominated.  He was a very versatile player (played both the PP and PK -- the only one to do it regularly, I think), he scored timely goals, always gave 100%, made it hard for the other team.  Yet he did not necessarily dominate on a team that finished out of the medals.

Look, I'm not knocking the kid at all.  It's a silly tournament.  I'm much more excited about how his team won the Memorial -- a much harder tournament to win, IMO.  But, again, although he was a very important cog in that machine he was not the "put contery on are back" cog.  

In my opinion, in his first go at it he will be an effective third liner, not more.  He's not a small guy, but he's not NHL big yet.  He's not a slow guy, but I don't think he's NHL fast, not yet.  He's not a plug, but he certainly does not have the high-end skillset.  He's got intangibles coming out of his ears but he will need more than third line minutes and, I'm afraid, better (more experienced?) linemates to make the kind of impact some of you seem to be expecting.

I'd love to be proven wrong, I just don't see him doing very much in his first year.  Wouldn't even surprised me if he ended up being sent back to junior for a while.

Even Neo didn't make the first jump.

Why does it matter what he does in his first year? That doesn't change the fact that he is their best prospect.

Still feel the same way?

spader wrote:

SpezDispensed wrote:Vote on ottawa's top prospect.

It's July 10. You're late, SD. New poll? My money is on Puempel or Lindberg this year.

EDIT: Or Paul.

Maybe we need to re-define (or even just define) the rules, here. What defines #1 -- is it, as Ev implied, what he does overall in his career (who cares what he does in year one) or is it the prospect you think will have the most impact this coming season, or is it simply the prospect you are the most excited to see as a pro?

For me, this year, I think Puempel has the best shot at grabbing a roster spot and contributing. We've already seen what he can do in the AHL and got a brief look at him in the NHL, and he certainly didn't look out of place (and was part of the comeback, for a while).

But overall, I think I'm most interested in Lindberg and Paul. I saw Lidber briefly at the DC the previous summer and he was (to me) the most impressive. Speed and size. He then went on and had a heck of a season in the OHL. Very interested to see what he does as a pro. And as for Paul, I think he's still growing into his body (he was undersized in his OHL draft year, didn't get drafted, now he's 6'4" and 220 -- that's a huge change in, what, 3-4 years? Takes time to adjust, strengthen and re-train your muscles. I think his ceiling is still unclear at this moment, but I think it can only go up from what we already expect.

I don't know enough about any of the latest draftees (Chlapik, Chabot, White, Gagne) to have anything resembling an opinion.

wprager wrote:

spader wrote:

SpezDispensed wrote:Vote on ottawa's top prospect.

It's July 10. You're late, SD. New poll? My money is on Puempel or Lindberg this year.

EDIT: Or Paul.

Maybe we need to re-define (or even just define) the rules, here.  What defines #1 -- is it, as Ev implied, what he does overall in his career (who cares what he does in year one) or is it the prospect you think will have the most impact this coming season, or is it simply the prospect you are the most excited to see as a pro?

For me, this year, I think Puempel has the best shot at grabbing a roster spot and contributing.  We've already seen what he can do in the AHL and got a brief look at him in the NHL, and he certainly didn't look out of place (and was part of the comeback, for a while).  

But overall, I think I'm most interested in Lindberg and Paul.  I saw Lidber briefly at the DC the previous summer and he was (to me) the most impressive.  Speed and size.  He then went on and had a heck of a season in the OHL.  Very interested to see what he does as a pro.  And as for Paul, I think he's still growing into his body (he was undersized in his OHL draft year, didn't get drafted, now he's 6'4" and 220 -- that's a huge change in, what, 3-4 years?  Takes time to adjust, strengthen and re-train your muscles.  I think his ceiling is still unclear at this moment, but I think it can only go up from what we already expect.  

I don't know enough about any of the latest draftees (Chlapik, Chabot, White, Gagne) to have anything resembling an opinion.

It's a good question. I think the #1 prospect is the guy who is going to be the best player out of the pool of prospects. I don't think it's the most ready, and I don't think it's who will have the best year next year. The best prospect may well stay in the AHL all season, but that doesn't change the fact that he's the best prospect. Puempel/Prince may be most ready, but I think people are more interested in seeing Paul/Lindberg when they're ready.

EDIT: Highest upside. That's the simplest way to say it. The best prospect is the one with the highest attainable upside.

If someone doesn't post one then I'll do it later.

SpezDispensed wrote:If someone doesn't post one then I'll do it later.

I still think that taking a poll as to who is number one based on career highs is a bit strange in this instant-gratification world. It's bad enough having to wait a whole year (well, season) to find out who was right about the breakout candidates (the poll on the main page -- been there for quite a while, maybe needs to change). But having to wait a good 5-10 years or more? Sorry, that's just too long to wait to say "Told ya!"

spader wrote:

wprager wrote:

spader wrote:

SpezDispensed wrote:Vote on ottawa's top prospect.

It's July 10. You're late, SD. New poll? My money is on Puempel or Lindberg this year.

EDIT: Or Paul.

Maybe we need to re-define (or even just define) the rules, here.  What defines #1 -- is it, as Ev implied, what he does overall in his career (who cares what he does in year one) or is it the prospect you think will have the most impact this coming season, or is it simply the prospect you are the most excited to see as a pro?

For me, this year, I think Puempel has the best shot at grabbing a roster spot and contributing.  We've already seen what he can do in the AHL and got a brief look at him in the NHL, and he certainly didn't look out of place (and was part of the comeback, for a while).  

But overall, I think I'm most interested in Lindberg and Paul.  I saw Lidber briefly at the DC the previous summer and he was (to me) the most impressive.  Speed and size.  He then went on and had a heck of a season in the OHL.  Very interested to see what he does as a pro.  And as for Paul, I think he's still growing into his body (he was undersized in his OHL draft year, didn't get drafted, now he's 6'4" and 220 -- that's a huge change in, what, 3-4 years?  Takes time to adjust, strengthen and re-train your muscles.  I think his ceiling is still unclear at this moment, but I think it can only go up from what we already expect.  

I don't know enough about any of the latest draftees (Chlapik, Chabot, White, Gagne) to have anything resembling an opinion.

It's a good question. I think the #1 prospect is the guy who is going to be the best player out of the pool of prospects. I don't think it's the most ready, and I don't think it's who will have the best year next year. The best prospect may well stay in the AHL all season, but that doesn't change the fact that he's the best prospect. Puempel/Prince may be most ready, but I think people are more interested in seeing Paul/Lindberg when they're ready.

EDIT: Highest upside. That's the simplest way to say it. The best prospect is the one with the highest attainable upside.

I have a lot of question marks regarding Paul. I'm not super high on Lindberg but I'm still very high on Pumpel. So I think everyone would rate differently. I still think Paul might turn into a very good 3rd liner. Pumpel on the other hand has top 6 write all over him. So at the moment I'm temporing certain expectations till Paul plays in Bingo and would rate Pumpel ahead. Prince needs to be evaluated at the NHL level. He's ready for a longer trial.

What are the question marks on Paul? He was undersized, didn't get drafted, grew like a weed, had a great season in the OHL that resulted in a spot on the WJC gold-winning team. 6'4" and 220 from 5'7" and whatever in 3-4 years I'd say he is still on a rising trajectory. Takes time to grow into a big body like that (e.g. Jumbo Joe) and when the growth spurt is this dramatic the adjustment time would be even longer. The fact that he had progressed as far and as quickly as he did bodes well for additional development.

wprager wrote:

Ev wrote:

wprager wrote:You guys are setting yourselves up for disappointment.  He had a very good WJC but I wouldn't say he dominated.  He was a very versatile player (played both the PP and PK -- the only one to do it regularly, I think), he scored timely goals, always gave 100%, made it hard for the other team.  Yet he did not necessarily dominate on a team that finished out of the medals.

Look, I'm not knocking the kid at all.  It's a silly tournament.  I'm much more excited about how his team won the Memorial -- a much harder tournament to win, IMO.  But, again, although he was a very important cog in that machine he was not the "put contery on are back" cog.  

In my opinion, in his first go at it he will be an effective third liner, not more.  He's not a small guy, but he's not NHL big yet.  He's not a slow guy, but I don't think he's NHL fast, not yet.  He's not a plug, but he certainly does not have the high-end skillset.  He's got intangibles coming out of his ears but he will need more than third line minutes and, I'm afraid, better (more experienced?) linemates to make the kind of impact some of you seem to be expecting.

I'd love to be proven wrong, I just don't see him doing very much in his first year.  Wouldn't even surprised me if he ended up being sent back to junior for a while.

Even Neo didn't make the first jump.

Why does it matter what he does in his first year? That doesn't change the fact that he is their best prospect.

Still feel the same way?

Yes lazar was easily the teams best prospect going into last year.

This year it is now Chabot or white.

You're hopeless. Lazar was a huge disappointment. He clearly would have been better off playing in Bingo -- that rule needs to be tweaked. He didn't hurt the team but you can't convince me that a 19 year old kid wondering if he's ever going to score a goal was a good situation. It was also extremely unfair to Pageau who deserved that spot way more than Lazar to toil away down in Bingo for half a season. Or even Puempel. Or even Prince.

Sure, it was great for Curtis, making the big bucks, but aside from the financial windfall I am afraid it was a regression year for him and now I have a legit fear that he will never become more than a third-linyou ce character guy. Nothing wrong with that, but they certainly didn't draft him to be just that.

wprager wrote:You're hopeless.  Lazar was a huge disappointment.  He clearly would have been better off playing in Bingo -- that rule needs to be tweaked.  He didn't hurt the team but you can't convince me that a 19 year old kid wondering if he's ever going to score a goal was a good situation.  It was also extremely unfair to Pageau who deserved that spot way more than Lazar to toil away down in Bingo for half a season.  Or even Puempel.  Or even Prince.

Sure, it was great for Curtis, making the big bucks, but aside from the financial windfall I am afraid it was a regression year for him and now I have a legit fear that he will never become more than a third-linyou ce character guy.  Nothing wrong with that, but they certainly didn't draft him to be just that.

What are you talking about? How does anything he did last year change the fact that he was without a doubt the team's top prospect going into last year? And I'm not including stone because he was not a prospect in my mind. You're not making any sense whatsoever.

Also nothing he did last year changes his upside in the team's mind or in my mind. If you think he was a huge diaspoointment then you had huge expectations that were completely unrealistic. He had a development year and learned a ton, just as the team wanted him to. He got NHL experience and world junior experience winning gold. You're clearly being hypocritical because you said all he would be is a third line type of guy in his first year. That's what he was, so what's your issue? How was he a disappointment in your eyes if that's what you were expecting?

Again you don't understand what top prospect means. It doesn't mean prospect who will make an impact sooner than the others. It means highest upside combined with possibility of realizing it. Lazar had the highest upside of any of our prospects going into last year. And he still does, besides maybe Colin White now.

You said he was our top prospect and his performance was anything but. He was outperformed by Stone, Hoffman, Pageau and perhaps even Puempel (will never know). You continue to support your pick yet it was clearly the wrong one.

Now, if you are still trying to argue who will have a bigger impact on the team in the long run? Good luck. It will take way too long to settle that argument. But, like I said earlier, there is a fear and it's not unfounded, that his ceiling now is a 3rd liner with a big heart and a huge smile. His paycheck last year would have better served the team by going to players who deserved it more.

wprager wrote:You said he was our top prospect and his performance was anything but.  He was outperformed by Stone, Hoffman, Pageau and perhaps even Puempel (will never know).  You continue to support your pick yet it was clearly the wrong one.

Now, if you are still trying to argue who will have a bigger impact on the team in the long run?  Good luck.  It will take way too long to settle that argument.  But, like I said earlier, there is a fear and it's not unfounded, that his ceiling now is a 3rd liner with a big heart and a huge smile.  His paycheck last year would have better served the team by going to players who deserved it more.

I don't think you know the definition of a prospect. Lazar being outperformed by anyone on his rookie season doesn't change his long term potential in any way, which is the Number 1 definition of a top prospect. The long term result.
If you think a rookie season is gonna make or break a player's potential, not sure what to tell you.

Lazar was on the 3rd line but he wasn't a 3rd liner. The organization decided he would "learn on the job" to the detriment of his linemates and by extension the team. I hope the failed experiment isn't repeated next season. Tons of other AHLers earned that spot fair and square. Lazar didn't. Not by a longshot.

wprager wrote:You said he was our top prospect and his performance was anything but.  He was outperformed by Stone, Hoffman, Pageau and perhaps even Puempel (will never know).  You continue to support your pick yet it was clearly the wrong one.

Now, if you are still trying to argue who will have a bigger impact on the team in the long run?  Good luck.  It will take way too long to settle that argument.  But, like I said earlier, there is a fear and it's not unfounded, that his ceiling now is a 3rd liner with a big heart and a huge smile.  His paycheck last year would have better served the team by going to players who deserved it more.

I told you I couldn't care less uwo he performed in year one. It does not mean he wasn't our top prospect. He was our top prospect, period. Still is.

You do not understand prospects and shouldn't rank them.

To you, sure. And the way the season went along proved you wrong.

I have to agree. The team and lazar would be better served by him spending some time in the AHL. I too fear that learning the ropes in the NHL might stunt his development to become an offensive player. I'm not gonna be thrilled if he just pans out a third liner. They should give him the opportunity to be a top line player in bingo. See if that can translate into the NHL.