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Last weekend for Murray / Clouston

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NEELY
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136Last weekend for Murray / Clouston - Page 10 Empty Re: Last weekend for Murray / Clouston Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:15 pm

PTFlea


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Michallica wrote:that's fine....but I'm referencing this talk of this past weekend being the last for murray and clouston in their current positions. I don't see pierre as our new gm...do you?

I never bought that to begin with. Why would we fire Murray before the season ended?

137Last weekend for Murray / Clouston - Page 10 Empty Re: Last weekend for Murray / Clouston Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:25 pm

sandysensfan


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Big Ev wrote:
NEELY wrote:Ottawa's 1st round pick this year will be a better prospect than either Colbourne or Kadri. Hell, their 2nd, 1st round pick might be in a year or two as well. Either way, Kadri and Colbourne are average prospects that would probably be better suited playing 2nd line center throguh their careers, then don't have the ability to be number 1's. Toronto will ruin them with stupid expectations.

I have already said that our first round pick will be better than any Leafs forward prospect.

Kadri is a better than average prospect though. If he was a Sens prospect (which he very well could be right now as Ottawa did want him) I have a feeling you wouldn't say that. I don't think we will get a better prospect with our second pick than him.

PS People like to Dung on Kadri but he was almost a PPG player as an AHL rookie. Cut him slack. If he was a Senator people would be raving about that.

Butler & Greening were having outstanding seasons in the AHL with one 1st overall in rookie scoring and the other 3rd overall....I believe at one point. Obviously since Feb they have been in Ottawa so that stopped their stats in the AHL.
Yes they are older and more mature.. but Kadri played more games in a tougher hockey environment with the CHL than both Butler & Greening did is US college. So I think it is a wash in experience wise.
We will know in a couple of years when all of them have a little more NHL experience just how they compare to each other. I know I really like Greening's defensive game.. and his 2 wrist shots for goals in Florida were very nice indeed.
Remember these 2 are rookies playing on the #1 line in Ottawa and are doing okay... I don't believe Kadri is playing on the #1 line for Toronto is he?

138Last weekend for Murray / Clouston - Page 10 Empty Re: Last weekend for Murray / Clouston Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:34 pm

sandysensfan


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Hoags wrote:
Michallica wrote:So....elephant in the room: what happened to this rumored 'last weekend for clouston/murray'? Last I checked, the weekend is over, and clouston and murray are still at the helm.

They've already said Clouston will finish the season and then they'll decide. Doubt he stays. If they fired Clouston during the year the only options would've been for BM to step in behind the bench or have one of the assistants take over. BM doesn't want to coach anymore (too old) and it seems the Sens don't think any of their associate coaches is worthy so does that mean they go as well ?

Murray will stick around til the draft at least. I assume he'll stay on in some capacity, he may even retain GM duties for another year.

If another GM gets hired, do the Murrays stay ? I imagine Tim thought the GM job will be his once BM retires but if an outsider is brought in he may go elsewhere. Kind of like what happened with Chiarelli.

Although I don't want Tim Murray as GM -- I would hate to see him leave the organization as he is good at analyzing young talent... and that is what this team needs -- along with the scouts of course.

139Last weekend for Murray / Clouston - Page 10 Empty Re: Last weekend for Murray / Clouston Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:36 pm

Ev

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sandysensfan wrote:
Big Ev wrote:
NEELY wrote:Ottawa's 1st round pick this year will be a better prospect than either Colbourne or Kadri. Hell, their 2nd, 1st round pick might be in a year or two as well. Either way, Kadri and Colbourne are average prospects that would probably be better suited playing 2nd line center throguh their careers, then don't have the ability to be number 1's. Toronto will ruin them with stupid expectations.

I have already said that our first round pick will be better than any Leafs forward prospect.

Kadri is a better than average prospect though. If he was a Sens prospect (which he very well could be right now as Ottawa did want him) I have a feeling you wouldn't say that. I don't think we will get a better prospect with our second pick than him.

PS People like to Dung on Kadri but he was almost a PPG player as an AHL rookie. Cut him slack. If he was a Senator people would be raving about that.

Butler & Greening were having outstanding seasons in the AHL with one 1st overall in rookie scoring and the other 3rd overall....I believe at one point. Obviously since Feb they have been in Ottawa so that stopped their stats in the AHL.
Yes they are older and more mature.. but Kadri played more games in a tougher hockey environment with the CHL than both Butler & Greening did is US college. So I think it is a wash in experience wise.
We will know in a couple of years when all of them have a little more NHL experience just how they compare to each other. I know I really like Greening's defensive game.. and his 2 wrist shots for goals in Florida were very nice indeed.
Remember these 2 are rookies playing on the #1 line in Ottawa and are doing okay... I don't believe Kadri is playing on the #1 line for Toronto is he?

They were playing on the "first line" out of circumstance, and they weren't always getting "first line" minutes. Kadri I believe is playing on the second or things.

Kadri > Greening or Condra or Butler, I don't think that's debatable. Colborne maybe, but Kadri no. Greening is about 4 years older than he is too.

140Last weekend for Murray / Clouston - Page 10 Empty Re: Last weekend for Murray / Clouston Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:42 pm

TheAvatar

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Michallica wrote:that's fine....but I'm referencing this talk of this past weekend being the last for murray and clouston in their current positions. I don't see pierre as our new gm...do you?

The thing said that last week-end was the last week-end. You can't say it's untrue until another week-end has come and gone. The way I see it (might be wrong) is that Murray wouldn't get fired; he would be moved onto a different position (perhaps Sr. Advisor). Has it occurred to you that might be what Murray actually wants ?!?

Anyways, We'll see what happens ...

141Last weekend for Murray / Clouston - Page 10 Empty Re: Last weekend for Murray / Clouston Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:44 pm

Ev

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TheAvatar wrote:
Michallica wrote:that's fine....but I'm referencing this talk of this past weekend being the last for murray and clouston in their current positions. I don't see pierre as our new gm...do you?

The thing said that last week-end was the last week-end. You can't say it's untrue until another week-end has come and gone. The way I see it (might be wrong) is that Murray wouldn't get fired; he would be moved onto a different position (perhaps Sr. Advisor). Has it occurred to you that might be what Murray actually wants ?!?

Anyways, We'll see what happens ...


He wouldn't be fired either way, he just wouldn't be given a new contract. Once July 1st hits, he is no longer an employee of the Ottawa Senators.

142Last weekend for Murray / Clouston - Page 10 Empty Re: Last weekend for Murray / Clouston Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:55 pm

Hoags

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We'll see what happens.

Melnyk can do a lot better than Cameron and McGuire that's for sure.

143Last weekend for Murray / Clouston - Page 10 Empty Re: Last weekend for Murray / Clouston Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:21 pm

PTFlea

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Big Ev wrote:
They were playing on the "first line" out of circumstance, and they weren't always getting "first line" minutes. Kadri I believe is playing on the second or things.

Kadri > Greening or Condra or Butler, I don't think that's debatable. Colborne maybe, but Kadri no. Greening is about 4 years older than he is too.

I'll give you Kadri over those guys without debate...for now. Ahhhhh!

144Last weekend for Murray / Clouston - Page 10 Empty Re: Last weekend for Murray / Clouston Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:25 pm

PTFlea

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Hoags wrote:We'll see what happens.

Melnyk can do a lot better than Cameron and McGuire that's for sure.

Forget McGuire, at this point I would be shocked to Dung if he was named our GM. But Cameron is a different story for coach, I've been reading as much as I can on people's opinions on Cameron - and the sentiment is the same for almost everyone: he's the next young coach to have an impact, much like Boucher in Tampa Bay.

I bad-mouthed him to death for the WJC and him not taking a timeout when he obviously should have. Not to mention he needs to have a signal for his goalie where the goalie either fakes an injury to slow things down, or 'makes' an equipment problem so he could have had a nice, long, direct chat with his players.

His coaching of the 3rd period left me cold, but as mentioned on this site, he was dealing with young, young guys who were all of a sudden thrust into a very dangerous situation with the Russians and lost. Was it avoidable? Probably not, but I thought he could have done better. That said, I think he's got the mind to be Head Coach in the NHL - and this is not me talking, this is researching him on the net.

145Last weekend for Murray / Clouston - Page 10 Empty Re: Last weekend for Murray / Clouston Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:26 pm

SensHulk

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TheAvatar wrote:
Michallica wrote:that's fine....but I'm referencing this talk of this past weekend being the last for murray and clouston in their current positions. I don't see pierre as our new gm...do you?

The thing said that last week-end was the last week-end. You can't say it's untrue until another week-end has come and gone. The way I see it (might be wrong) is that Murray wouldn't get fired; he would be moved onto a different position (perhaps Sr. Advisor). Has it occurred to you that might be what Murray actually wants ?!?

Anyways, We'll see what happens ...

'

We'll see but from what Murray said before, he's going to be there as the GM at the draft....maybe he goes to sr. advisor after that, but no way does that spell Pierre Mcguire coming in as GM

146Last weekend for Murray / Clouston - Page 10 Empty Re: Last weekend for Murray / Clouston Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:54 pm

Hoags

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SpezDispenser wrote:
Forget McGuire, at this point I would be shocked to Dung if he was named our GM. But Cameron is a different story for coach, I've been reading as much as I can on people's opinions on Cameron - and the sentiment is the same for almost everyone: he's the next young coach to have an impact, much like Boucher in Tampa Bay.

Interesting - what makes you think Cameron will have such an impact ? Did he not coach Bingo for a while (and fail miserably ?)

I thought of him more like Hartsburg.... success at every level except at the NHL(and he won the WJC twice).

Hiring Cameron tells me Melnyk is calling the shots and wants "his" people in place (not necessarily the best people available).

As for McGuire -- yeah I don't see what he brings to the table that other candidates don't.

147Last weekend for Murray / Clouston - Page 10 Empty Re: Last weekend for Murray / Clouston Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:03 pm

SDH89

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Hoags wrote:
SpezDispenser wrote:
Forget McGuire, at this point I would be shocked to Dung if he was named our GM. But Cameron is a different story for coach, I've been reading as much as I can on people's opinions on Cameron - and the sentiment is the same for almost everyone: he's the next young coach to have an impact, much like Boucher in Tampa Bay.

Interesting - what makes you think Cameron will have such an impact ? Did he not coach Bingo for a while (and fail miserably ?)

I thought of him more like Hartsburg.... success at every level except at the NHL(and he won the WJC twice).

Hiring Cameron tells me Melnyk is calling the shots and wants "his" people in place (not necessarily the best people available).

As for McGuire -- yeah I don't see what he brings to the table that other candidates don't.

Im with you Hoags, not too sure I see the upside of bringing in DC. Seems like a path that we've already been down.

148Last weekend for Murray / Clouston - Page 10 Empty Re: Last weekend for Murray / Clouston Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:08 pm

PTFlea

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Hoags wrote:
Interesting - what makes you think Cameron will have such an impact ? Did he not coach Bingo for a while (and fail miserably ?)

I thought of him more like Hartsburg.... success at every level except at the NHL(and he won the WJC twice).

Hiring Cameron tells me Melnyk is calling the shots and wants "his" people in place (not necessarily the best people available).

As for McGuire -- yeah I don't see what he brings to the table that other candidates don't.

This is a guy that takes a page from the Kleindorst school of thought (from what I've read). He demands that players conduct themselves professionally both on AND off the rink - something that I personally think is very important. He's apparently quite tough, but is there to give guys a pat on the back when they need it - which can be quite often on a young team. He demands also that work ethic amongst players is elite - and if you're not in good enough shape when you come into camp, I think he'd sit you until you were.

He'll hold the superstars accountable the same way he'll hold the third and fourth liners accountable, benching if he feels it'll help the attitude. He can also become a teacher to players without becoming too soft to coach, he'll command respect, command character and become the person his players can come to if they have issues.

He's also a fitness NUT - he's in as good or better shape than a lot of NHLers, so he'd have no issues in skating the guys hard if he thought they were even slightly dogging it. He'll also have his assistants film off-ice workouts so he can assess where his guys are - or he'll be in the room watching personally. No team that he coaches is gonna be lolly-gagging around the ice, they'll be playing the game as hard as humanly possible.

He preaches a 100% TEAM concept, where all 4 lines are integral to the team's success. Hard forechecking from all 4 lines, hard teams to play against, character teams.

And that's what I want personally, whether he can do all this at the NHL is still in question, but it's something that I can see working, because the players literally don't have any other choice but to buy in. Besides, Spezza has already completely bought into this style, Michalek would love it, Alfie would love it, Foligno would love it and on and on...he seems like a fit.

149Last weekend for Murray / Clouston - Page 10 Empty Re: Last weekend for Murray / Clouston Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:10 pm

PTFlea

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To add to that, he's like Clouston in terms of being a hard-Donkey, but he has the communication skills to be a well-rounded coach that players really badly want to play for and win for.

150Last weekend for Murray / Clouston - Page 10 Empty Re: Last weekend for Murray / Clouston Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:23 pm

Ev

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I honestly think he will get the job. I like him a lot too. It's just easy to put two-and-two together since he is the coach in Mississauga.

151Last weekend for Murray / Clouston - Page 10 Empty Re: Last weekend for Murray / Clouston Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:37 pm

LeCaptain

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Big Ev wrote:
marakh wrote:
Big Ev wrote:
marakh wrote:Well perhaps you should give an argument on what he has done wrong and what he should have done? Because right now saying going from Stanley CUp finalist to last place etc without anything concrete to back it up, I don't consider as an argument. I have an argument against it though: Take a look at that roster and tell me who played a big part in it that we desperately miss..Redden? Shaeffer? PReissing? Emery? Corvo? Vermette?
I won't talk about the coaches he has hired since that was definitely bad.
But the roster moves? Come on... Name me one top team in the last 6 years that had more than 1 player on their core that were acquired either through trade or free agency. Apart from Anaheim who acquired Niedermayer and Pronger thanks to 2 future franchise players on ELC...

No need to give arguments. It's been debated ad nauseum. Everyone loves Murray now because of his pre-deadline deals. Before then he was 100% going to be replaced.

Not sure about the others, I've been behind Murray since he was hired as GM. I love what he's doing at the draft and with the college kids. I seriously don't give a crap about trades or free agent signings, not one of them make a real impact on a franchise and they usually are only necessary because of a poor development system and a lack of depth. An organization who drafts and develops players well and doesn't make a single trade during a year is a great organization in my book. WHen's the last time you have seen Ken Holland make a great trade or free agent signing? Was it Rafalski? or 2 months of Hossa? Don't even remember. Yet I hear all the time how he is a great GM.
The teams who have won a cup after the lock out have had either drafted pretty well, or had one or numerous lottery picks. It's not even debatable, it's facts.
Rating a GM's job by analyzing a Leclaire trade or a Kovalev signing is, IMO, irrelevant and a waste of time.

So you base everything on how a GM drafts? A GM is supposed to help your team succeed in the present. The GM should be the one who focuses on the pro-side of things, and the assistants and scouts should be the ones who look towards the future.

How can you say that trades and signings don't make an impact on your team? The Leclaire trade is THE biggest reason why this team is where it is at right now. Him getting injured had a ripple effect through the whole organization. Same with Kovalev. His character/compete level/age was a huge reason why this team has been so streaky for the last couple of years. Saying these things are IRRELEVANT is odd.

Sure you could applaud Murray for his drafting, but his prospects may or may not pan out. Most fans around the league think all their prospects will pan out. He has two players in the current lineup to show for his drafting.

PS For those who rip on Brian Burke, he was left int he same situation as Murray basically...he also has a Cup and has built the core of the current Vancouver Canucks. Plus he got his team a sniper that they desperately needed, and he traded away Kaberle in a steal of a deal (IMO). If we're gonna applaud Murray we gotta applaud Burke as well.

Sorry I'm late but I will respond to this:

1/ First, I do not think trades are useless, I just don't care about trades when you don't have a solid core to begin with + assets to trade to get some good players back. If we had one, just one good asset to trade in 2008 we wouldn't be in this situation. Actually, we had one, but he refused to waive his NTC (which was given by Muckler) otherwise, if the rumours are true, we would be with Jeff Carter as our N2 center right now...

2/ I am not comparing Burke with Murray, actually I like what Burke is doing in Toronto but he still has to find a N1 center which he could have had if he was more patient, and which is also the hardest piece to get. But, they have IMO at least 5 2nd liners: Grabovski, Kulemin, McArthur, Kadri, Bozak, and 1 1st liner. All very young and that makes a deep group, but still missing a huge piece. If he gets Brad Richards though, watch out. I also think Colborne can be a good 2nd line center. He's like the Wiercioch on the forward position. Skilled, tall, but weak.
All in all, I think the two have done a good job so far. Nothing to show for it yet, but solid.

3/ How many years after Burke left Vancouver did they become a cup contending team? Actually, how many teams have more than 2 players playing on their team, drafted since 2008 and not a top 5 pick? Not a lot, that's why I would say it's unfair to say Murray has 2 players to show
Prospects need to pan out, yes, but you can still analyze how good they are at a reference point. Right now Karlsson at 15 and Rundblad at 16 look like steals.

4/ So you're saying it's Bryan Murray's fault if he couldn't predict Leclaire would get a puck in the face sitting on the bench or get hit by FIsher's slapper on the head? Last weekend for Murray / Clouston - Page 10 484884 Who exactly that year would have been a better option on the UFA market? It is a legit question, I don't remember.

152Last weekend for Murray / Clouston - Page 10 Empty Re: Last weekend for Murray / Clouston Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:10 pm

Hoags

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I think this rebuild shows Murray's capability as GM (good and bad). Up until now he's been propping up a team he inherited, trying to keep it competitive while restocking our prospects.

I'm sure the next GM will take credit for some of Murray's moves if we become a contender or winner. Murray's the type of GM who excels at long-term moves, but that's what we need now.

SpezDispenser wrote:To add to that, he's like Clouston in terms of being a hard-Donkey, but he has the communication skills to be a well-rounded coach that players really badly want to play for and win for.

I hope you're right, he seems like a Clouston-Hartsburg hybrid to me but I don't really know too much about him outside of the world juniors this year. I can't shake the feeling he'll get the job just because of his connection to Melnyk, it just feels like cronyism (but hey this is Ottawa, we're all about cronyism here).

153Last weekend for Murray / Clouston - Page 10 Empty Re: Last weekend for Murray / Clouston Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:24 pm

PTFlea

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Hoags wrote:
I hope you're right, he seems like a Clouston-Hartsburg hybrid to me but I don't really know too much about him outside of the world juniors this year. I can't shake the feeling he'll get the job just because of his connection to Melnyk, it just feels like cronyism (but hey this is Ottawa, we're all about cronyism here).

Cronyism, or the right place at the right time?

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