Last weekend for Murray / Clouston

sandysensfan wrote:

Dash wrote:

sandysensfan wrote:Name me a 1st round pick of Muckler that is playing on the Sens right now?

Brian Lee and Nick Foligno

Yeah you are right... just can't see them being 1st round picks though, can you?

Doesn't that speak to the "Muckler Cussed this team" argument?

Both Murray and Muckler are to blame. If you don't think that Murray should take any blame at all, you're just a Murray homer and you are very very blind. It's pretty sad how much some people defend even his most blatant errors. It's always "never his fault".

THAT BEING SAID, like I have already said, there aren't better options and I will be happy if he is GM again. But just because the guy is good at rebuilding doesn't give the fans the right to just forgive his errors of the past 4 years. Most teams, he would have been canned a year ago. The mini-rebuild should have started right after that Cup run. They did nothing to really change the team at all.

sandysensfan wrote:

Big Ev wrote:

wprager wrote:BigEv, why do you say BM ruined the team in his four years here? He was given a franchise with three stars (Spezza, Heatley, Alfredsson) and a so-so supporting cast, with absolutely *nothing* happening down on the farm. He was forced to give his stars big deals because of the state of the farm team. This included giving Emery more money and term than he wanted to do. Redden over Chara was not BM's decision. Signing Russians left/right and center was Muckler, too. Maybe Muckler knew he sucked at drafting so that's why he never hesitated to give away picks.

Murray's mistakes include not being able to pick a good coach (although we know that Hartsburg was not his first choice) and not putting a "handler" on Emery. In a salary cap world you cannot rebuild overnight, especially if you are a small Canadian market (difficult getting free agents to come here). The Heatley fiasco set us back a couple of years because he was forced to take on a bad contract (Cheechoo) and sign Kovalev. I'm a firm believer that the Kovalev signing was heavily influenced by Melnyk to draw fans. Not 100% sure about Gonchar but could be that one, too.

This is nothing that I haven't heard before. All this bare cupboard stuff. A lot of the guys we have playing right now are Muckler picks.

Fact is, if you go from Stanley Cuip Finalist to almost last place in a matter of 4 seasons, something has to change. He may not have RUINED the team but he did't do much of anything to improve it in 4 years. That's a pretty long time.

How could he improve the team? He had no bloody cap space when he took over. Players had to leave and NO prospects to bring in to fill the void.

Greening & Condra are Muckler's picks yes... they were 7th round picks. Name me a 1st round pick of Muckler that is playing on the Sens right now?

It has only been this year that any prospects were around to start the re-build... it could NOT have been done before this year. Murray tried to keep this team competitive and re-build at the same time. He did that with a goalie for the future... and pretty damn good defensemen coming. He could not be faulted because Leclaire could not stay healthy & Elliott could not be a steady goaltender. Other players too comfortable with no competition for their jobs.
Murray is not blameless however, there are a couple of moves I don't like of his... but I don't care who the GM was coming in after Muckler, even the great & powerful Brian Burke --they could do any better than Murray -- they would have had the same problems.

He's the one who traded for Leclaire, so yes he is to blame for this. Anybody could see that that trade was very risky and Leclaire would most likely get hurt.

marakh wrote:Well perhaps you should give an argument on what he has done wrong and what he should have done? Because right now saying going from Stanley CUp finalist to last place etc without anything concrete to back it up, I don't consider as an argument. I have an argument against it though: Take a look at that roster and tell me who played a big part in it that we desperately miss..Redden? Shaeffer? PReissing? Emery? Corvo? Vermette?
I won't talk about the coaches he has hired since that was definitely bad.
But the roster moves? Come on... Name me one top team in the last 6 years that had more than 1 player on their core that were acquired either through trade or free agency. Apart from Anaheim who acquired Niedermayer and Pronger thanks to 2 future franchise players on ELC...

No need to give arguments. It's been debated ad nauseum. Everyone loves Murray now because of his pre-deadline deals. Before then he was 100% going to be replaced.

Flo The Action wrote:

wprager wrote:BigEv, why do you say BM ruined the team in his four years here? He was given a franchise with three stars (Spezza, Heatley, Alfredsson) and a so-so supporting cast, with absolutely *nothing* happening down on the farm. He was forced to give his stars big deals because of the state of the farm team. This included giving Emery more money and term than he wanted to do. Redden over Chara was not BM's decision. Signing Russians left/right and center was Muckler, too. Maybe Muckler knew he sucked at drafting so that's why he never hesitated to give away picks.

Murray's mistakes include not being able to pick a good coach (although we know that Hartsburg was not his first choice) and not putting a "handler" on Emery. In a salary cap world you cannot rebuild overnight, especially if you are a small Canadian market (difficult getting free agents to come here). The Heatley fiasco set us back a couple of years because he was forced to take on a bad contract (Cheechoo) and sign Kovalev. I'm a firm believer that the Kovalev signing was heavily influenced by Melnyk to draw fans. Not 100% sure about Gonchar but could be that one, too.

yes i was just going to say the same thing. murray came in and was handed over sweet Diddle all. we had no prospects. every successful team in the league replenishes its product from the inside as well as thru FA. Big Ev i can start seeing why you want PM to come in, but i'm sorry i don't subscribe to the reactionary approach to hockey. quick fixes don't make winners in this game. it's an easy comparison, it's the Burke VS Murray. we're ,iles ahead of the leaves as far as being a long term contender.

I don't want Pierre McGuire to come in, thanks. Also, how are we "miles ahead" of the Leafs as far as being a long term contender. They have a solid group right now, a promising goaltender, and some solid solid prospects coming up as well. Prospects are just prospects, so you should really only focus on the cores of both teams right now. Toronto has us beat in that department, and worse if they get a #1 centre this offseason. I wouldn't be so quick to say that we are miles ahead of them. It just seems like people are saying that because they are just bitter towards everything Leaf.

sandysensfan wrote:I remember just after the trade deadline how Pierre McGuire was sucking up to Ottawa & their fans with the great job the team was doing with the re-build.
Then Sens signed Anderson -- according to PM -- they jumped the gun.. should have waited, he is not proven.
He recently criticized the Da Costa signing saying it was a one year contract for him to get noticed then he would leave to UFA (he is wrong on that of course).
Now he is sucking up to the Leafs and their fans... saying Reimer is the real deal. How proven is Reimer as he has played about 30 NHL games.. but Anderson (who he says is unproven) has had several good decent years as a backup -- an outstanding FULL SEASON as a starter.

Here's the problem I think with PM. He talks too much to other GMs and become friends with them, then that GM who probably is close to him tells him Ottawa got DaCosta because they offered a 2 year deal, the kid plays a few games and becomes UFA the year after. Of course he doesn't know the rules so he thinks the GM is right, and that GM probably was trying to get DaCosta too and was a lil bitter that Ottawa got him.

Big Ev wrote:

marakh wrote:Well perhaps you should give an argument on what he has done wrong and what he should have done? Because right now saying going from Stanley CUp finalist to last place etc without anything concrete to back it up, I don't consider as an argument. I have an argument against it though: Take a look at that roster and tell me who played a big part in it that we desperately miss..Redden? Shaeffer? PReissing? Emery? Corvo? Vermette?
I won't talk about the coaches he has hired since that was definitely bad.
But the roster moves? Come on... Name me one top team in the last 6 years that had more than 1 player on their core that were acquired either through trade or free agency. Apart from Anaheim who acquired Niedermayer and Pronger thanks to 2 future franchise players on ELC...

No need to give arguments. It's been debated ad nauseum. Everyone loves Murray now because of his pre-deadline deals. Before then he was 100% going to be replaced.

Not sure about the others, I've been behind Murray since he was hired as GM. I love what he's doing at the draft and with the college kids. I seriously don't give a crap about trades or free agent signings, not one of them make a real impact on a franchise and they usually are only necessary because of a poor development system and a lack of depth. An organization who drafts and develops players well and doesn't make a single trade during a year is a great organization in my book. WHen's the last time you have seen Ken Holland make a great trade or free agent signing? Was it Rafalski? or 2 months of Hossa? Don't even remember. Yet I hear all the time how he is a great GM.
The teams who have won a cup after the lock out have had either drafted pretty well, or had one or numerous lottery picks. It's not even debatable, it's facts.
Rating a GM's job by analyzing a Leclaire trade or a Kovalev signing is, IMO, irrelevant and a waste of time.

Big Ev wrote:

Flo The Action wrote:

wprager wrote:BigEv, why do you say BM ruined the team in his four years here? He was given a franchise with three stars (Spezza, Heatley, Alfredsson) and a so-so supporting cast, with absolutely *nothing* happening down on the farm. He was forced to give his stars big deals because of the state of the farm team. This included giving Emery more money and term than he wanted to do. Redden over Chara was not BM's decision. Signing Russians left/right and center was Muckler, too. Maybe Muckler knew he sucked at drafting so that's why he never hesitated to give away picks.

Murray's mistakes include not being able to pick a good coach (although we know that Hartsburg was not his first choice) and not putting a "handler" on Emery. In a salary cap world you cannot rebuild overnight, especially if you are a small Canadian market (difficult getting free agents to come here). The Heatley fiasco set us back a couple of years because he was forced to take on a bad contract (Cheechoo) and sign Kovalev. I'm a firm believer that the Kovalev signing was heavily influenced by Melnyk to draw fans. Not 100% sure about Gonchar but could be that one, too.

yes i was just going to say the same thing. murray came in and was handed over sweet Diddle all. we had no prospects. every successful team in the league replenishes its product from the inside as well as thru FA. Big Ev i can start seeing why you want PM to come in, but i'm sorry i don't subscribe to the reactionary approach to hockey. quick fixes don't make winners in this game. it's an easy comparison, it's the Burke VS Murray. we're ,iles ahead of the leaves as far as being a long term contender.

I don't want Pierre McGuire to come in, thanks. Also, how are we "miles ahead" of the Leafs as far as being a long term contender. They have a solid group right now, a promising goaltender, and some solid solid prospects coming up as well. Prospects are just prospects, so you should really only focus on the cores of both teams right now. Toronto has us beat in that department, and worse if they get a #1 centre this offseason. I wouldn't be so quick to say that we are miles ahead of them. It just seems like people are saying that because they are just bitter towards everything Leaf.

I agree with this, I think both teams would be about at the same place if Anderson and Reimer play well and if our 2 rookie blueliners manage to play in the top 6.
The only difference I see is they got one top line player and we got one, but we have a chance to get another one this draft and I don't see Kadri becoming a legit 1st line center, while I see RNH, Huberdeau, Couturier and Strome becoming one. Like a lot of things, it can change.

marakh wrote:

Big Ev wrote:

marakh wrote:Well perhaps you should give an argument on what he has done wrong and what he should have done? Because right now saying going from Stanley CUp finalist to last place etc without anything concrete to back it up, I don't consider as an argument. I have an argument against it though: Take a look at that roster and tell me who played a big part in it that we desperately miss..Redden? Shaeffer? PReissing? Emery? Corvo? Vermette?
I won't talk about the coaches he has hired since that was definitely bad.
But the roster moves? Come on... Name me one top team in the last 6 years that had more than 1 player on their core that were acquired either through trade or free agency. Apart from Anaheim who acquired Niedermayer and Pronger thanks to 2 future franchise players on ELC...

No need to give arguments. It's been debated ad nauseum. Everyone loves Murray now because of his pre-deadline deals. Before then he was 100% going to be replaced.

Not sure about the others, I've been behind Murray since he was hired as GM. I love what he's doing at the draft and with the college kids. I seriously don't give a crap about trades or free agent signings, not one of them make a real impact on a franchise and they usually are only necessary because of a poor development system and a lack of depth. An organization who drafts and develops players well and doesn't make a single trade during a year is a great organization in my book. WHen's the last time you have seen Ken Holland make a great trade or free agent signing? Was it Rafalski? or 2 months of Hossa? Don't even remember. Yet I hear all the time how he is a great GM.
The teams who have won a cup after the lock out have had either drafted pretty well, or had one or numerous lottery picks. It's not even debatable, it's facts.
Rating a GM's job by analyzing a Leclaire trade or a Kovalev signing is, IMO, irrelevant and a waste of time.

So you base everything on how a GM drafts? A GM is supposed to help your team succeed in the present. The GM should be the one who focuses on the pro-side of things, and the assistants and scouts should be the ones who look towards the future.

How can you say that trades and signings don't make an impact on your team? The Leclaire trade is THE biggest reason why this team is where it is at right now. Him getting injured had a ripple effect through the whole organization. Same with Kovalev. His character/compete level/age was a huge reason why this team has been so streaky for the last couple of years. Saying these things are IRRELEVANT is odd.

Sure you could applaud Murray for his drafting, but his prospects may or may not pan out. Most fans around the league think all their prospects will pan out. He has two players in the current lineup to show for his drafting.

PS For those who rip on Brian Burke, he was left int he same situation as Murray basically...he also has a Cup and has built the core of the current Vancouver Canucks. Plus he got his team a sniper that they desperately needed, and he traded away Kaberle in a steal of a deal (IMO). If we're gonna applaud Murray we gotta applaud Burke as well.

Burke has really made only two mistakes as a GM: trading away 2 firsts and a 2nd for kessel (obviously), and signing komisarek. The rest remain up in the air so we can't conclude he's been a bad GM....but those are two pretty glaring mistakes that actually set the team back a couple of seasons. They should have been in the post season by now since they drafted Schenn 3 years ago.

spader wrote:

sandysensfan wrote:

Dash wrote:

sandysensfan wrote:Name me a 1st round pick of Muckler that is playing on the Sens right now?

Brian Lee and Nick Foligno

Yeah you are right... just can't see them being 1st round picks though, can you?

Doesn't that speak to the "Muckler Cussed this team" argument?

Some player who went *after* Foligno:
- Milan Lucic
- Keith Seabrook
- Michael Neuvirth

Michallica wrote:Burke has really made only two mistakes as a GM: trading away 2 firsts and a 2nd for kessel (obviously), and signing komisarek. The rest remain up in the air so we can't conclude he's been a bad GM....but those are two pretty glaring mistakes that actually set the team back a couple of seasons. They should have been in the post season by now since they drafted Schenn 3 years ago.

You don't consider Phaneuf and Giguere mistakes?

wprager wrote:

Michallica wrote:Burke has really made only two mistakes as a GM: trading away 2 firsts and a 2nd for kessel (obviously), and signing komisarek. The rest remain up in the air so we can't conclude he's been a bad GM....but those are two pretty glaring mistakes that actually set the team back a couple of seasons. They should have been in the post season by now since they drafted Schenn 3 years ago.

You don't consider Phaneuf and Giguere mistakes?

Well, consider what they got rid off to get them....no I don't. Maybe making Phaneuf captain was the mistake....but in acquiring him for really scraps, plus aulie, that's a pretty good trade if you ask me. Giguere, I can see what he was trying to do and it was a failed experiment but was low risk. He's up at the end of the season, and got rid of jason blake, an anchor of a contract. Now he needs to do another one of these deals to get rid of komisarek.

wprager wrote:

Michallica wrote:Burke has really made only two mistakes as a GM: trading away 2 firsts and a 2nd for kessel (obviously), and signing komisarek. The rest remain up in the air so we can't conclude he's been a bad GM....but those are two pretty glaring mistakes that actually set the team back a couple of seasons. They should have been in the post season by now since they drafted Schenn 3 years ago.

You don't consider Phaneuf and Giguere mistakes?

That Phaneuf trade was a steal. They got their captain, who is looking like the Calgary Phaneuf more and more lately, while only having to give up Hagman and Stajan and Mayers (i.e. decent forwards but nothing too amazing). Plus they got Aulie as well.

Giguere makes a lot of money but he has mentored Reimer pretty well. He hasn't helped the team a lot but he hasn't hurt it too much. Plus, they got rid of Toskala in that deal I think, so win-win.

His biggest mistake is keeping Wilson around.

So if Colorado more or less took Elliott to get rid of Anderson to more or less tank this season... why could the Sens not also send them Kuba - for at least a 7th round pick or worse.

Clouston did say last night though that Kuba has an injury and should not be playing.. but they have no choice.

As much as I hate Toronto I'd say they are ahead of us. They've been 'rebuilding' under Burke for a while now.

Sens only decided halfway this year to rebuild.

The uncertainty in the GM and coaching positions makes it harder to call. If Murray sticks around we know roughly what to expect.

I'm not sure any other GM could do better than Murray given our situation right now.

Hoags wrote:As much as I hate Toronto I'd say they are ahead of us. They've been 'rebuilding' under Burke for a while now.

Sens only decided halfway this year to rebuild.

The uncertainty in the GM and coaching positions makes it harder to call. If Murray sticks around we know roughly what to expect.

I'm not sure any other GM could do better than Murray given our situation right now.

Leafs have been re-building for 6 yrs.
Sens have been re-building for 2 months. (not including the last couple of drafts)

Yeah I would say the Leafs are ahead of the Sens in the re-build. At that rate.. they should be.

But their prospects on the Marlies will not see playoffs this year... and with 1 more win.. Ottawa prospects will.. And most of those prospects in Bingo are rookies -- and for the last 6 weeks their best players have been in Ottawa... but they still made that playoff push... so whose prospects are better right now?

sandysensfan wrote:

Hoags wrote:As much as I hate Toronto I'd say they are ahead of us. They've been 'rebuilding' under Burke for a while now.

Sens only decided halfway this year to rebuild.

The uncertainty in the GM and coaching positions makes it harder to call. If Murray sticks around we know roughly what to expect.

I'm not sure any other GM could do better than Murray given our situation right now.

Leafs have been re-building for 6 yrs.
Sens have been re-building for 2 months. (not including the last couple of drafts)

Yeah I would say the Leafs are ahead of the Sens in the re-build. At that rate.. they should be.

But their prospects on the Marlies will not see playoffs this year... and with 1 more win.. Ottawa prospects will.. And most of those prospects in Bingo are rookies -- and for the last 6 weeks their best players have been in Ottawa... but they still made that playoff push... so whose prospects are better right now?

Toronto has not been rebuilding for 6 years. They only really started when Burke took over.

How well your AHL team is doing doesn't necessarily show how good your prospects are. I honestly couldn't care less if Binghamton was a basement dweller - most of the players on that team will never see NHL ice. Hamilton won the Calder Cup a couple of years back, that didn't mean the Habs had the best prospects. Toronto's forward prospects kill ours right now.

Case in point, Ottawa's two best prospects are not in the AHL.