Last weekend for Murray / Clouston

How do people know if Pierre is or isn't respected around the league ?

Anyone listed to Pierre on the radio and what he'd do if he was GM ? He'd run this team into the ground.

Why would we replace someone of BM's experience with him ? The fans are so bent on running Murray out of town because of what'd happened the last few years they'd be willing to accept someone like PM. Da Costa wouldn't have given us the time of day if PM was the GM.

If you're going to replace BM might as well get someone with assistant GM or relatvant experience. Not sure who just talks hockey all the time. Might as well appoint Brennan or Garrioch ....

Flo The Action wrote:

Big Ev wrote:People just love to hate everyone they see/hear constantly. If Pierre McGuire wasn't on the Team every morning and wasn't on TSN for the premier games, then nobody would say a thing. His personality will lead to people disliking him because of this, as opposed to McKenzie who is always calm and doesn't say things that might (god forbid) cause discussion.

Side note. George Bush was a competent president, but people liked to hate him because of his personality and his perceived lack of intelligence. I read his memoirs and he is a rather cool character.

If he wasn't respected then he wouldn't be brought on the radio every Cussing morning and wouldn't have the premiere analyst gig at TSN, NBC, and now Versus. Barry Melrose is is a bit of a tool but at least he's just on the panel.

you must be joking... do you think Bush read his own memoirs? you really think he had much to do with that book? have you heard of ghostwritters? Bush was a puppet for many other individuals and companies. the fact that they managed to get him re-elected is the real feat here. seriously

I think you mean "wrote", and yes I do believe HE wrote it. He talks about how dumb he is as well.

Not even gonna get into politics as it's such a stupid area of debate. So many untruthful comments just get spewed around.

Flo The Action wrote:

Big Ev wrote:People just love to hate everyone they see/hear constantly. If Pierre McGuire wasn't on the Team every morning and wasn't on TSN for the premier games, then nobody would say a thing. His personality will lead to people disliking him because of this, as opposed to McKenzie who is always calm and doesn't say things that might (god forbid) cause discussion.

Side note. George Bush was a competent president, but people liked to hate him because of his personality and his perceived lack of intelligence. I read his memoirs and he is a rather cool character.

If he wasn't respected then he wouldn't be brought on the radio every Cussing morning and wouldn't have the premiere analyst gig at TSN, NBC, and now Versus. Barry Melrose is is a bit of a tool but at least he's just on the panel.

you must be joking... do you think Bush read his own memoirs? you really think he had much to do with that book? have you heard of ghostwritters? Bush was a puppet for many other individuals and companies. the fact that they managed to get him re-elected is the real feat here. seriously

Let's use this little politics analogy though. If BM (Bush) ruined this team in the 4 years he's been here, why should he be re-signed (re-elected)? Think about it. Why should he be allowed to rebuild what he Cussed up?

I'm not saying there are any better options that come to mind, and I am happy if he is, but you could say he doesn't deserve to fix the mess HE made.

Flo The Action wrote:

Big Ev wrote:People just love to hate everyone they see/hear constantly. If Pierre McGuire wasn't on the Team every morning and wasn't on TSN for the premier games, then nobody would say a thing. His personality will lead to people disliking him because of this, as opposed to McKenzie who is always calm and doesn't say things that might (god forbid) cause discussion.

Side note. George Bush was a competent president, but people liked to hate him because of his personality and his perceived lack of intelligence. I read his memoirs and he is a rather cool character.

If he wasn't respected then he wouldn't be brought on the radio every Cussing morning and wouldn't have the premiere analyst gig at TSN, NBC, and now Versus. Barry Melrose is is a bit of a tool but at least he's just on the panel.

you must be joking... do you think Bush read his own memoirs? you really think he had much to do with that book? have you heard of ghostwritters? Bush was a puppet for many other individuals and companies. the fact that they managed to get him re-elected is the real feat here. seriously

Re-elected? He was never elected.

BigEv, why do you say BM ruined the team in his four years here? He was given a franchise with three stars (Spezza, Heatley, Alfredsson) and a so-so supporting cast, with absolutely *nothing* happening down on the farm. He was forced to give his stars big deals because of the state of the farm team. This included giving Emery more money and term than he wanted to do. Redden over Chara was not BM's decision. Signing Russians left/right and center was Muckler, too. Maybe Muckler knew he sucked at drafting so that's why he never hesitated to give away picks.

Murray's mistakes include not being able to pick a good coach (although we know that Hartsburg was not his first choice) and not putting a "handler" on Emery. In a salary cap world you cannot rebuild overnight, especially if you are a small Canadian market (difficult getting free agents to come here). The Heatley fiasco set us back a couple of years because he was forced to take on a bad contract (Cheechoo) and sign Kovalev. I'm a firm believer that the Kovalev signing was heavily influenced by Melnyk to draw fans. Not 100% sure about Gonchar but could be that one, too.

wprager wrote:BigEv, why do you say BM ruined the team in his four years here? He was given a franchise with three stars (Spezza, Heatley, Alfredsson) and a so-so supporting cast, with absolutely *nothing* happening down on the farm. He was forced to give his stars big deals because of the state of the farm team. This included giving Emery more money and term than he wanted to do. Redden over Chara was not BM's decision. Signing Russians left/right and center was Muckler, too. Maybe Muckler knew he sucked at drafting so that's why he never hesitated to give away picks.

Murray's mistakes include not being able to pick a good coach (although we know that Hartsburg was not his first choice) and not putting a "handler" on Emery. In a salary cap world you cannot rebuild overnight, especially if you are a small Canadian market (difficult getting free agents to come here). The Heatley fiasco set us back a couple of years because he was forced to take on a bad contract (Cheechoo) and sign Kovalev. I'm a firm believer that the Kovalev signing was heavily influenced by Melnyk to draw fans. Not 100% sure about Gonchar but could be that one, too.

yes i was just going to say the same thing. murray came in and was handed over sweet Diddle all. we had no prospects. every successful team in the league replenishes its product from the inside as well as thru FA. Big Ev i can start seeing why you want PM to come in, but i'm sorry i don't subscribe to the reactionary approach to hockey. quick fixes don't make winners in this game. it's an easy comparison, it's the Burke VS Murray. we're ,iles ahead of the leaves as far as being a long term contender.

wprager wrote:BigEv, why do you say BM ruined the team in his four years here? He was given a franchise with three stars (Spezza, Heatley, Alfredsson) and a so-so supporting cast, with absolutely *nothing* happening down on the farm. He was forced to give his stars big deals because of the state of the farm team. This included giving Emery more money and term than he wanted to do. Redden over Chara was not BM's decision. Signing Russians left/right and center was Muckler, too. Maybe Muckler knew he sucked at drafting so that's why he never hesitated to give away picks.

Murray's mistakes include not being able to pick a good coach (although we know that Hartsburg was not his first choice) and not putting a "handler" on Emery. In a salary cap world you cannot rebuild overnight, especially if you are a small Canadian market (difficult getting free agents to come here). The Heatley fiasco set us back a couple of years because he was forced to take on a bad contract (Cheechoo) and sign Kovalev. I'm a firm believer that the Kovalev signing was heavily influenced by Melnyk to draw fans. Not 100% sure about Gonchar but could be that one, too.

This is nothing that I haven't heard before. All this bare cupboard stuff. A lot of the guys we have playing right now are Muckler picks.

Fact is, if you go from Stanley Cuip Finalist to almost last place in a matter of 4 seasons, something has to change. He may not have RUINED the team but he did't do much of anything to improve it in 4 years. That's a pretty long time.

Flo The Action wrote:

Big Ev wrote:People just love to hate everyone they see/hear constantly. If Pierre McGuire wasn't on the Team every morning and wasn't on TSN for the premier games, then nobody would say a thing. His personality will lead to people disliking him because of this, as opposed to McKenzie who is always calm and doesn't say things that might (god forbid) cause discussion.

Side note. George Bush was a competent president, but people liked to hate him because of his personality and his perceived lack of intelligence. I read his memoirs and he is a rather cool character.

If he wasn't respected then he wouldn't be brought on the radio every Cussing morning and wouldn't have the premiere analyst gig at TSN, NBC, and now Versus. Barry Melrose is is a bit of a tool but at least he's just on the panel.

you must be joking... do you think Bush read his own memoirs? you really think he had much to do with that book? have you heard of ghostwritters? Bush was a puppet for many other individuals and companies. the fact that they managed to get him re-elected is the real feat here. seriously

How is Obama any different? Or any president since the turn of the 20th century? America is run by corporations. They wield WAY too much influence.

Well perhaps you should give an argument on what he has done wrong and what he should have done? Because right now saying going from Stanley CUp finalist to last place etc without anything concrete to back it up, I don't consider as an argument. I have an argument against it though: Take a look at that roster and tell me who played a big part in it that we desperately miss..Redden? Shaeffer? PReissing? Emery? Corvo? Vermette?
I won't talk about the coaches he has hired since that was definitely bad.
But the roster moves? Come on... Name me one top team in the last 6 years that had more than 1 player on their core that were acquired either through trade or free agency. Apart from Anaheim who acquired Niedermayer and Pronger thanks to 2 future franchise players on ELC...

hemlock wrote:

Flo The Action wrote:

Big Ev wrote:People just love to hate everyone they see/hear constantly. If Pierre McGuire wasn't on the Team every morning and wasn't on TSN for the premier games, then nobody would say a thing. His personality will lead to people disliking him because of this, as opposed to McKenzie who is always calm and doesn't say things that might (god forbid) cause discussion.

Side note. George Bush was a competent president, but people liked to hate him because of his personality and his perceived lack of intelligence. I read his memoirs and he is a rather cool character.

If he wasn't respected then he wouldn't be brought on the radio every Cussing morning and wouldn't have the premiere analyst gig at TSN, NBC, and now Versus. Barry Melrose is is a bit of a tool but at least he's just on the panel.

you must be joking... do you think Bush read his own memoirs? you really think he had much to do with that book? have you heard of ghostwritters? Bush was a puppet for many other individuals and companies. the fact that they managed to get him re-elected is the real feat here. seriously

How is Obama any different? Or any president since the turn of the 20th century? America is run by corporations. They wield WAY too much influence.

This, the president of the USA doesn't matter.

I like Murray a lot, I like that he took the initiative to make smart trades of guys we simply needed to turn over and I like that he's an awesome drafter + college signer. He's put the rebuild on the right track without question, from the goalie(s) Anderson and Lehner, to the forward core that's coming, to the D-men.

Big Ev wrote:

wprager wrote:BigEv, why do you say BM ruined the team in his four years here? He was given a franchise with three stars (Spezza, Heatley, Alfredsson) and a so-so supporting cast, with absolutely *nothing* happening down on the farm. He was forced to give his stars big deals because of the state of the farm team. This included giving Emery more money and term than he wanted to do. Redden over Chara was not BM's decision. Signing Russians left/right and center was Muckler, too. Maybe Muckler knew he sucked at drafting so that's why he never hesitated to give away picks.

Murray's mistakes include not being able to pick a good coach (although we know that Hartsburg was not his first choice) and not putting a "handler" on Emery. In a salary cap world you cannot rebuild overnight, especially if you are a small Canadian market (difficult getting free agents to come here). The Heatley fiasco set us back a couple of years because he was forced to take on a bad contract (Cheechoo) and sign Kovalev. I'm a firm believer that the Kovalev signing was heavily influenced by Melnyk to draw fans. Not 100% sure about Gonchar but could be that one, too.

This is nothing that I haven't heard before. All this bare cupboard stuff. A lot of the guys we have playing right now are Muckler picks.

Fact is, if you go from Stanley Cuip Finalist to almost last place in a matter of 4 seasons, something has to change. He may not have RUINED the team but he did't do much of anything to improve it in 4 years. That's a pretty long time.

How could he improve the team? He had no bloody cap space when he took over. Players had to leave and NO prospects to bring in to fill the void.

Greening & Condra are Muckler's picks yes... they were 7th round picks. Name me a 1st round pick of Muckler that is playing on the Sens right now?

It has only been this year that any prospects were around to start the re-build... it could NOT have been done before this year. Murray tried to keep this team competitive and re-build at the same time. He did that with a goalie for the future... and pretty damn good defensemen coming. He could not be faulted because Leclaire could not stay healthy & Elliott could not be a steady goaltender. Other players too comfortable with no competition for their jobs.
Murray is not blameless however, there are a couple of moves I don't like of his... but I don't care who the GM was coming in after Muckler, even the great & powerful Brian Burke --they could do any better than Murray -- they would have had the same problems.

I remember just after the trade deadline how Pierre McGuire was sucking up to Ottawa & their fans with the great job the team was doing with the re-build.
Then Sens signed Anderson -- according to PM -- they jumped the gun.. should have waited, he is not proven.
He recently criticized the Da Costa signing saying it was a one year contract for him to get noticed then he would leave to UFA (he is wrong on that of course).
Now he is sucking up to the Leafs and their fans... saying Reimer is the real deal. How proven is Reimer as he has played about 30 NHL games.. but Anderson (who he says is unproven) has had several good decent years as a backup -- an outstanding FULL SEASON as a starter.

sandysensfan wrote:Name me a 1st round pick of Muckler that is playing on the Sens right now?

Brian Lee and Nick Foligno

Dash wrote:

sandysensfan wrote:Name me a 1st round pick of Muckler that is playing on the Sens right now?

Brian Lee and Nick Foligno

Yeah you are right... just can't see them being 1st round picks though, can you?

sandysensfan wrote:

Dash wrote:

sandysensfan wrote:Name me a 1st round pick of Muckler that is playing on the Sens right now?

Brian Lee and Nick Foligno

Yeah you are right... just can't see them being 1st round picks though, can you?

Doesn't that speak to the "Muckler Cussed this team" argument?

Both Murray and Muckler are to blame. If you don't think that Murray should take any blame at all, you're just a Murray homer and you are very very blind. It's pretty sad how much some people defend even his most blatant errors. It's always "never his fault".

THAT BEING SAID, like I have already said, there aren't better options and I will be happy if he is GM again. But just because the guy is good at rebuilding doesn't give the fans the right to just forgive his errors of the past 4 years. Most teams, he would have been canned a year ago. The mini-rebuild should have started right after that Cup run. They did nothing to really change the team at all.

sandysensfan wrote:

Big Ev wrote:

wprager wrote:BigEv, why do you say BM ruined the team in his four years here? He was given a franchise with three stars (Spezza, Heatley, Alfredsson) and a so-so supporting cast, with absolutely *nothing* happening down on the farm. He was forced to give his stars big deals because of the state of the farm team. This included giving Emery more money and term than he wanted to do. Redden over Chara was not BM's decision. Signing Russians left/right and center was Muckler, too. Maybe Muckler knew he sucked at drafting so that's why he never hesitated to give away picks.

Murray's mistakes include not being able to pick a good coach (although we know that Hartsburg was not his first choice) and not putting a "handler" on Emery. In a salary cap world you cannot rebuild overnight, especially if you are a small Canadian market (difficult getting free agents to come here). The Heatley fiasco set us back a couple of years because he was forced to take on a bad contract (Cheechoo) and sign Kovalev. I'm a firm believer that the Kovalev signing was heavily influenced by Melnyk to draw fans. Not 100% sure about Gonchar but could be that one, too.

This is nothing that I haven't heard before. All this bare cupboard stuff. A lot of the guys we have playing right now are Muckler picks.

Fact is, if you go from Stanley Cuip Finalist to almost last place in a matter of 4 seasons, something has to change. He may not have RUINED the team but he did't do much of anything to improve it in 4 years. That's a pretty long time.

How could he improve the team? He had no bloody cap space when he took over. Players had to leave and NO prospects to bring in to fill the void.

Greening & Condra are Muckler's picks yes... they were 7th round picks. Name me a 1st round pick of Muckler that is playing on the Sens right now?

It has only been this year that any prospects were around to start the re-build... it could NOT have been done before this year. Murray tried to keep this team competitive and re-build at the same time. He did that with a goalie for the future... and pretty damn good defensemen coming. He could not be faulted because Leclaire could not stay healthy & Elliott could not be a steady goaltender. Other players too comfortable with no competition for their jobs.
Murray is not blameless however, there are a couple of moves I don't like of his... but I don't care who the GM was coming in after Muckler, even the great & powerful Brian Burke --they could do any better than Murray -- they would have had the same problems.

He's the one who traded for Leclaire, so yes he is to blame for this. Anybody could see that that trade was very risky and Leclaire would most likely get hurt.